It was two years ago that I wrote about a Turanian tribal meeting in Hungary. At that time a friend of mine sent me a link to a Hungarian-language paper published in Romania. The article he called my attention to was a detailed description of Kurultaj 2010, a three-day affair organized by the Hungarian-Turanian Foundation.
Those were the good old days. By now the fourth Turanian tribal meeting that is being held in Hungary starting today is a semi-official, government sponsored affair. One doesn’t have to go to an obscure Romanian website to read a description of the event. Today, one of the Fidesz deputy speakers of the house is the sponsor of the tribal meeting and the Hungarian government is providing a generous grant of 70 million forints to the foundation to hold the gathering.
Last year apparently 150,000 people attended the affair, but this year the organizers are expecting 250,000. And while two years ago the delegations of 12 countries took part in the event, this year the number of participating countries is 25. The organizers expect forty newspapermen from Turkey alone. Ten countries’ television crews will also be present. The entertainment is being provided by 111 groups made up of people with an interest in early Hungarian history and customs.
The participants coming from abroad, allegedly relatives of the Hungarians, were greeted with great fanfare in parliament, in the chamber of the former upper house. Even the Foreign Ministry was represented by Ernő Keskeny, the head of the department dealing with Eastern Europe and Central Asia. He emphasized that “the organization of Kurultaj is in accord with the present government’s foreign policy strategy, the politics of opening toward the East, and it will surely contribute to its success.” Until now this event was associated exclusively with Jobbik, but it seems that the Hungarian government is now actively supporting this yearly gathering of the Hungarian-Turanian Foundation.
There are two problems with Turanism. The first is that it is a completely bogus theory that has no scientific foundation. The second is that Hungarian Turanism is associated with Ferenc Szálasi’s Hungarism as well as the ideology of Jobbik.
The term “Turanian” was coined by Max Müller (1823-1900), a German orientalist. He called all languages that did not belong to the Indo-European or the Semitic language families Turanian. Linguistically it turned out to be a faulty theory, but “Turanian” continued to be used in a geopolitical sense for a while. Turan is the Persian name for Central Asia, and the original Turanians were an ancient Iranian tribe. Jobbik’s support of Iran can perhaps understood not only as a reflection of its anti-Semitism but also of its attachment to the idea of Turanism.
Turanism in Hungary became especially fashionable in far-right circles after World War I. They were disillusioned with the West because of the Treaty of Trianon and turned toward the East in search of new allies. Doesn’t that sound familiar? The most radical Turanians actually stressed the superiority of Eastern culture and race over the Caucasians of the West. Ferenc Szálasi was among those who believed in the existence of a Turanian-Hungarian race that also included Jesus Christ; this idea became a key part of his ideology of Hungarism.
Today Jobbik and its president are wholehearted supporters of Turanism and Pan-Turkism since Jobbik considers Hungarian to be a Turkic language. And it seems that the Hungarian government is ready to join ranks with Jobbik in supporting Turanism, thereby standing behind an absolutely unscientific theory. Two years ago I thought that Sándor Lezsák (Fidesz) might not be familiar with the history of Hungarian Turanism. By now, I am certain that he knows all about Turanism past and present and belongs to the extreme right of the party whose ideology includes a belief in Turanism. I would put László Kövér in the same category. With the “rehabilitation” of the Horthy regime comes a revitalization of Turanism. Where will this all lead? Certainly not back to Turan but perhaps out of the community of European nations in spirit and ideology.
My father has roots in the Alfold, yes. Funnily enough, my father is a chef, and has worked in in a Japanese restaurant here in Australia. During his initial interview he asked the manager if his not being Japanese was going to be an issue. The response? Australian customers wouldn’t be able to tell by looking at him. So there you go. Puts any suggestion of Semitic, Roma or Germanic heritage to rest in my opinion. There ARE Hungarians of central Asian origin- I just fail to see why the idea is such a big deal and open to debate. People really need to get lives.
I do not see where An said that hey are not from Asia. Can you point me to it?
By the way for those of you who support the religious references of our government and the supreme right about living according to God and so forth according to the bible we are all from Adam and Eve.
Now, if you do not want to follow the bible, where do you think Humans came from Lewis Kovach and totallybogan????? The Arctic????? Africa of course. Some ended up in Eurasia, Australia and Americas in the last 150,0000 up too 10,000 years ago. (modern humans are from 70,0000 years ago) From Eurasia of course they were settling here and there when from hunters-gatherers (nomads), and the list goes on. So what is the cut off line to call ourselves Hungarians. 2,000, 1,000, 10,000 years? I am keen to hear you responses between selecting the Bible scenario as good Christians, or the evolution theory. If you select the evolution theory, I would love to hear the cut-off time for be a true Hungarian.
You are funny, Louis Kovach. Of course Turkic people came from Asia. So did Finno-Ugric people…. in fact, they traveled together for a long time, and mixed…and then Hungarians settled and mixed some more….Of course,after all the mixing, there are Turkic features in some Hungarians, just as there are Slavic, Germanic, Gypsy, Jewish features…..not to mention all those ethnic groups that were in the Carpathian basin when Hungarians arrived. To claim that somebody is “pure Hungarian” is just ridiculous.
Sopme1: “I am keen to hear you responses between selecting the Bible scenario as good Christians, or the evolution theory. If you select the evolution theory, I would love to hear the cut-off time for be a true Hungarian.”
Of course from Storkland! You think you were found in a cabbage patch???
For answer for the last 12,000 years in Europe, I refer you to “Europe Between the Oceans: 9000 BC-AD 1000”
by Barry Cunliffe
A quote from the description “Europe is, in world terms, a relatively minor peninsula attached to the Eurasian land mass. Yet it became one of the most innovative regions on the planet, generating restless adventurers who traversed the globe to trade, to explore, and often to settle. By the fifteenth century Europe was a driving world force, but the origins of its success have until now remained obscur….”
IMHO, it is best description of development in Europe combining archeology, meteorology, geography and written sources for the development of Europe and you will find that not only folks, but many critical inventions, ideas also cam from Asia to Europe.
“Storkland”? No kidding you have issues. You cannot even a clear, precise answer. You beat around the bush, because you are trapped in your own idiocracy.
I for one do not believe in Storkland and Cabbage Patch or Adam and Eva, but I guess I am just more mature to talk about this subject. Why Jews and gypsies are fighting for their acceptance as Hungarian with scums like Jobbik and true Hungarisn, you make fun of this. I despise you.
Did anyone say that critical inventions did not came from Asia? WHere did the Asians came from Louis? WHere the Jews came from?
You totally loosing it now.
Some1″ “WHere the Jews came from?
You totally loosing it now.”
The written records say Africa (Egypt) but it is not a requirement to believe national mythologies.
“Some1″ “WHere the Jews came from?
You totally loosing it now.”
“The written records say Africa (Egypt) but it is not a requirement to believe national mythologies.”
Thank you. So according to science all humans are from Africa. Yes even the Asians and the Native Americans started their march there. Hence if you believe in science you must believe that Jews, Hungarians and Asians too connected by our African anchestors. Either that Luiis or Adam and Eve.
Gypsy people are in europe only for 600 years, they came from India. It was close to impossible a marriage with a gypsy or jewish people before the 20th century. However balkan people (romanians serbs bugarians etc…) mixed with turks gypsies etc. (It is proved by genetiics too) that’s why Balkan-people have average darker pigmentation (eye hair color)
It is not a logical reasoning. It is meaningless in every discussion that people came from africa. Moreover: I believe that all people developed from the same ancient monkey-like creatures. But!!! It doesn’t mean that all people are equal in IQ or all people have the same knowledge capabilities and talents etc.,…
OK, so all people came form the same monkey like creatures wherever they were in Africa or Neverland. The point is that we came from the same smudge, gypsies, Jews or Hungarians. THe only differences are that we are either from Adam and Eve or from the same monkey like creatures, and what defines us as Jews, gypsies, African Americans or Hungarians is taking the left path versus the right or going straight with our fellow monkey like creatures and ending with to much sun here and there, choosing different God like creatures or not. SO what is the cut off time for being true Hungarian?
I would recommend everyone to read THe New Definition of the Hungarian Nation by the Hungarian World Congress (at least for a good laugh).
According to them if you do not believe in God as defined by by the Roman Catholicism, you are out. ” A magyar nép olyan történelmi gyökerekkel rendelkező közösség, amelynek tagjai azonos módon viszonyulnak teremtő, mindenható Istenükhöz és természeti környezetükhöz”.
Yea! Now I understand Michael Jackson was a Hungarian?
Now I understand! Makes sense.
If he’s a Hungarian – then I’m a Dutchman.
Of course ‘Hungarianism’ in a Central Europe context in a landlocked country with many other ‘tribes’ all around would have mixed the DNA like a soup.
How can anyone say that their ‘tribe’ never ‘inter-married’?
That’s off the wall! (see what I did there?)
That’s pure Hungarian thinking!
Better melt away
(Taking it back to the big bang – we could well have one atom of hydrogen in one finger – from one planet – and another atom of hydrogen from another planet in the another finger. Now square that with ‘Pure Hungarianism’!)
Nobody claimed that Michael Jackson was Hungarian. Where are you inventing this rubbish from. If you are trying to make is look foolish, it’s backfiring, because that statement made you look really, really stupid.
‘Some1’ said Michael Jackson was a Turanian?
Well he conflated ‘African’ with ‘Neverland’ – but I knew what me meant!
That’s the only thing I could make sense of in this thread?
I just need a little help with my ‘Michael-Jackson-Was-A-Turanian’ theory.
He certainly had almond shaped eyes – when we could see them of course.
And he had olive skin (well most of the time) and black hair. OK not white skin or yellow – but maybe in between? (And he was certainly a proud in-betweener if you catch my drift!)
And of course no one would have dared calling him an European (he was not a cheese eating surrender monkey!)
The problem I have is with the nose?
What shape is a typical Turanian nose?
I know I’ll have problems when I find a typical example – because we know he had quite a few problems in that area – but I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it!
Your help would be appreciated!
Charlie, just read this for a start (and a good laugh – but only if you’re in the mood …)
And if you’re in another mood, maybe this might help:
“The Curse of Turan (Hungarian: Turáni átok) is a belief that Hungarians have been under the influence of a malicious spell for many centuries. The “curse” manifests itself as inner strife, pessimism, misfortune and several historic catastrophes.”
Still I wonder why some Hungarian Jews had the name “Turan” – like the famous mathematician …
PS: There also was a Hungarian tank called Turan in WW2:
The Turan was employed by the 1st and 2nd Hungarian Armored Divisions, as well as the 1st Cavalry Division, in 1943 and 1944. Both types were hopelessly outclassed by the Soviet’s superior T-34 and IS-2 tanks.
Sorry, the above post has an editing error, the whole quote is from Realities.
@gdfxx and @realities: Yes, gypsies were slaves in Romania but not in Hungary. Yes, intermarriages were and still very rare (both in Hungary and in Romania).
I still contend that Hungarians are a mixed brunch, see my earlier post on that. My family is German on the one side and Slav, with some possibly “Kun” on the other side. Also, there are rumors in the family of having gypsy and Jewish in the line somewhere… though that may be just family folklore… no evidence that I know of.
I meant “mixed bunch” of course.
@ CharlieH (London Calling) Maybe you should read a little more about what our true Hungarians claim. My whole point is that if you anyone tales it remotely serious who the true Hungarians supposed to be, then they should go back all the way to Adam and Eve if they are religious or back to Africa where the human species came from. THe whole idea of proposing that Hungarians are related to Asians certainly true but if we move back on the timeline Hungarians also related to all races that came form Africa.
Sorry that you had a hard time to follow this thread, but the whole idea of celebrating our Turanian roots and embracing our Turanian heritage is full of garbage in a time when Hungary cannot even properly celebrate its diverse culture.
Neverland is also puts Kovach’s storkland into perspective.
PLease also read the Hungarians World Congress’ New Definition of the Hungarian Nation, that according to them clearly spells out how far we supposed to go back to be considered to be true Hungarians and who is a true Hungarian. It is a shameful blurb that makes as much sense as much sense the whole fascination with being a true Hungarian means that you marched wit the Hungarian tribes between a certain period. Anything before and anything after just bot count according to them.
One more note on the mixing…. my uncle married a Jewish woman, and when I was born, my catholic parents asked them to be my godparents. Both my uncle and his wife agreed, so my godmother is in fact Jewish…. I really don’t know why she agreed to this, but I think it’s pretty funny.
I decided to look up the origin of the word “godparent”, where else, in Wikipedia. I did this because in Hungarian the word is even more Christian than in English, literally it translates as “parent of the cross”. The Wikipedia article sounds interesting (although I have no idea how accurate it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godparent ), and I see that the Catholic Church is quite restrictive even today as of who can fulfill this role.
This has gotten ridiculous. Talk about degenerating into babble. Some1 and Charlie, go stir your shit somewhere else. All this Michael Jackson nonsense isn’t even funny. Nobody claimed he was Turanian, talk about stupidity. You sound like children. Get over yourselves. This is a topic that is important to many people. Show some respect.
You get over yourself. I did not bring in Michael Jackson here, so learn ti read. I did not see you here to post here to often. or not by that name. You have no idea what my posts are referring to that is an old “conversation”with Kovach, where he refused to specify what is the cut off line for someone being considered to be real Hungarian. The whole point is that all Jews or gypsies who’s heritage in Hungary goes back by centuries are as much Hungarian as the stupid definition set by Kovach or the Hungarians’ World Congress’ New Definition of the Hungarian Nation or a stupid get together for Turanians. If you do not find that scary I feel sorry for you. If your whole input about how Hungarians celebrate their Asian roots while freely speech and teach anti-semitism, then your respect lies with those crappy organizations, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Hungarian Jews are more Hungarian then Asians who never even stepped on Hungarian soil. So totally bogan where is your loyalty lies with the Hungarian Jews and gyspies or wit the Asians and Turks who never stepped on Hungarin soil?
p.s. I never connected Neverland to Michael Jackson (that was CharlieH). For me Neverland is connected t the idea of J. M. Barrie. If in any doubt, please do your research to figure out what it refers to.
I have nothing against Jews, and at least I never denied their existence in Hungary. Tell me, however, what positive things Gypsies have done for ANY country they now live in. I have learnt the hard way not to trust one, so my sympathies will never be with them. As for Asians and Turks never setting foot on Hungarian land, are you kidding? Are you saying you see NO traces of their ancestry among at least SOME Hungarians at ALL? Because that’s about ALL I see when I look at MY Hungarian family. You don’t know me. Dont tell me my family’s roots. Is it so hard to believe that not all Hungarians are not Germanic, Roma or Semitic? If that is your own frame of reference, that is fair enough, but don’t tell me about mine. I suffer RACISM from Anglo Australians for my Eurasian appearance. Is THAT in my head, too?
Some1 I owe you an apology. Sorry.
I always read your posts and yes – I did get your point. I too am not a believer in the bible and you were generously making allowances for those who do.
Regarding that just quickly – I find a blade of grass is a miracle – as is the universe – so I don’t need ‘Father Christmas’ type stories to seek refuge in. I am trying understand our existence that fits all the miracles of the universe.
This link does my beliefs justice – so far – if you would do me the courtesy of having a look.
As regards ‘Turanism’ I was having fun! Eva’s post analyses it so succinctly – and Wolfi’s links adds to the mix – that Turanism is, in my view, a load of old codswallop.
I have the confidence and satisfaction of knowing that I am English – there are no shades of Englishness, I am an Englishman – no less, or greater. I can look the world in the eye as such. I neither feel inferior or superior. I don’t need to reinforce my Englishness by finding false scientific evidence to show whether I am ‘Pure’ or not.
Hungarians born in Hungary are Hungarian. There is no gradation. Most of the population believes this. There are no ‘pure’ or ‘impure’ Hungarians. Just as England is made up of Picts. Vikings, Saxons and other ‘tribes’ – then Hungarians (‘True’ Hungarians!) are made up of many tribes too. But they are all Hungarian!
I did look at the site that tried to define ‘Hungarianism’ – from a Google translation. I am afraid to say that this is tilting at windmills – complete balderdash! I don’t think it would have made sense in a perfect translation either – but I got the gist.
All this ‘True’ Hungarian balderdash (and yes ‘Turanism’ too) smacks of the Nazis who tried to define a true ‘Aryan’ race – complete bollocks of course.
Hungary is a Nation of Peoples. Just get on and make it the best society for all. Where everyone is equal. It is hard enough to do that in a decent democratic society – which I believe England is close to – let alone a ‘democratic’ society that Hungary is supposed to be.
Just do it and drop all this ‘pure’ crap.
@ Charlie, Loved it, loved it, loved it. THe video that is. I also loved the English subtitle under the English. lol
Me too! Great video!! LMAO!
People, you must learn popultion genetics and haplogroups (Y and mt.DNA) Hungarians have average less asian haplogroup markers than slavic-speaking naions (Q and N1C1 haplogroups.) Balkan people have strong genetic ties also with midle-eastern peoples who settled in the Balkan 10,000 years ago (Haplogroup J and E1B1). Face the facts, Hungarians have lesser genetic herritage with eastern (mongoloid) genes than slavs and lesser ratio of middle-eastern genes than Balkan people.
Hungarians genetically are more europeans than slavic people.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml (see N and Q haplogroups)
Roma don’t look Hungarian, but they can be Hungarians, but on the other hand, Hungarians don’t look Central Asians, and they can’t be Central Asians?
Why the double standards and hypocrisy?
Csaba, I’m tired of arguing with some who is as ignorant as you are. Refrain from commenting. If you don’t I will send your comments to trash.
Why does everybody look for “Asian” markers in connection with Hungarians? Lets think about Tarim mummies. Surprisingly they belonged to “European” haplogroups in the Tarim Basin, China…..
The majority of the peoples of Central Asia still belongs to “European” haplogroups. Ancient genetic make-up of the Hungarians and ethnogenesis of southern Finno-Ugric peoples are still debated. It is possible the Finno-Ugric peoples have partially “European” genetic origin (R1a1-z280 or R1a1-z93) beside the N1c1 (It also has “European” subclades)……
I still think that Europe and Asia are actually one continent.
Fakirbakir, Slavic people contain average higher ratio of asian (mongoloid) haplogroups. Despite of that, Slavs don’t want to identity themselves as Asians. Balkan people contain average higher ratio of middle-eastern haplogroups, despite of that they don’t want to identity themselves as middle-eastern people.
I just wanted to point out that Asian origin does not equal with “Asian” genetic origin. And actually Finno-Ugric peoples are native Eastern Europeans (in the sense of genetics as well).
Comments are closed.