Ferenc Gyurcsány’s State of the Nation speech 2013, Part III

As soon as possible, we must create an electoral alliance – which is not a government coalition

“We must create an electoral alliance. As soon as possible! Not a government coalition. The main goal of an electoral alliance is to overthrow Orbán and re-establish constitutionality. For the first one, for the electoral alliance, we need everybody who is on the democratic side. For a government coalition, we need only part of them, and I have no idea now, who these shall be. It is probably, but I can say it more precisely: it is completely sure that without the Socialists, the democrats cannot have a new government. It is far from certain that the Democratic Coalition (to deal with our own business only) should participate in the government as well. But it is certain that it should take a part in the overthrowing of Orbán, that it should pursue a policy ensuring that the next government shall be able to represent all of those values we also represent. But the reason why we are in politics in this young party is not that we want to have a car, a good job, a position as an under-secretary of state, but the reason is that this will not be a liveable country, if all things go on like now. I think it makes sense for us to formulate our words cautiously. As soon as possible, we ought to think over what could be the political platform of a so wide electoral coalition, capable of accommodating the democratic plurality. What shall be its shortest message, proclamation, and 12 points? To let the voters know, to let them know what the alternative is. I say once more: this is not a government coalition and this is not a government programme. But we shall work on it, work in order to make it clear what common is in us, and what the alternative is that we can offer against today’s reality.”

15 March should be a joint power demonstration of the democratic opposition’s plurality*

“And I say it again, I say it once more, very precisely, in order to avoid misunderstandings: it would be a must to consider, I repeat: consider, making 15th of March the day of a joint power demonstration of the democratic opposition’s plurality. It would be a must. We are in an easier situation now than in previous years. Due to the fact that E-2014 modified its strategy and will become a party by 15 March. 15 March will surely not be, cannot be just an event organised by the civilian plurality, convened by Milla, any more. Therefore, inevitably, some party or several parties will also appear there. To express it even more clearly: I am not looking for a stage for myself; if I want one, I can set it up on my own. The question is not about who will speak there – if I want, I can speak too. The question is whether or not we are able to declare, one year before the next election, that everybody who is a democrat and wants to overthrow Orbán, shall be on board, shall be on the same place. And then, it is a secondary issue, who will speak. To be frank, it is much easier to acclaim than to speak, that is, one will at least have an easier holiday weekend. We ought to be normal and liberal, after all, we ought to be. We can play our petty games for some more time, but Orbán will be laughing up in his sleeve. And I would really like to erase this smile from his face.”

By this autumn, we ought to come to an agreement on all issues of the electoral alliance

“The opposition’s electoral alliance ought to come to an agreement by this autumn on the person who leads the alliance, on the uniform list, the candidates, the programme, the joint campaign. Not because there is a preliminary registration (in that case, we would have been compelled to do that), but because of our well-recognized interest that many-many months of joint work are ahead of us. None of us is strong enough to do this job alone. We can talk about preliminary campaign, positioning, gathering strength for the final negotiation, but it is slowly time to abandon that. Let the political scientists talk about that; we shall act as politicians, democrats and patriots, and we shall search the company of the other democrats.”

Gyurcsany evertekelo2

DK is present in all 106 electoral districts

“Let me say a few sentences also about what we have done in the past one year. The only reason why Democratic Coalition is not the youngest democratic party in the country is that, as I see it, in the past months, there is a strong interest in setting up new parties on our side. Democrats are of prolific type, as I see it. In my opinion, this is all right. I mean prolificacy. Further on, my standpoint is that anybody who is able to bring new voters, be it any number, shall proceed with it, shall show himself and, at the end, of course, shall join the common cause. I think this is a normal attitude. Having done a hell of a job, with active contributions from all of you who are here now, Democratic Coalition is already present in each of the 106 electoral districts, in 750 towns and villages. I do not want to vex my Socialist friends, but in my opinion, we have more potential for action than they have in settlements with less than 10,000 inhabitants. We have about 7,000 members, out of these 7,000, approximately one-third came to us from your party, two-thirds did not came from there – why do you applaud now? Is it because of the one-third or the two-thirds? It does matter! And mayoral candidates supported by us or even mayors or candidates acting under our logo, in our name achieved excellent results, they won or ranked second, with a higher support than the measured level of our support, with 25 per cent in the past months. I cannot tell you how many supporters we have. I simply can’t. I can’t tell you whether this is a figure of one or two hundred thousand, as measured, or significantly more, because people are silent about their party preferences in this present Hungarian reality, deriving from the social psychology need of putting the blame on Gyurcsány. And I do understand that it is sometimes not easy to answer the question, even if without names, on supporting the party of that Gyurcsány. Together with that I do not want to commit the mistake that a large number of politicians do, namely, not believing to polls. But I’ve got to tell you in all sincerity that I have no idea about that. There will be a large-sample poll in 2014, and then, this question will be clear. Today, I think that Democratic Coalition will be a strong and stable actor in the parliament. This is what we are working for.”

DK’s programme: it is a pro-market, pro-solidarity, pro-performance programme clearly opposing Orbán’s system, wanting a western-oriented, civic Hungary

“About two weeks or three weeks ago, Democratic Coalition approved its comprehensive political programme. I think we can say, without being immodest, in the knowledge of the programme-creation process of the democratic parties and all the outcomes of these, that Democratic Coalition is the party that most clearly stands up against Orbán’s system, such that it does not intend to conclude any compromise with them, a party that is visualising a western-oriented, civic Hungary, a party that is fundamentally pro-market and represents the principles of solidarity and modernisation. Yes, we think that this country will become rich if it will be built again on individual and community performance, on entrepreneurship, innovation and success. At the same time, we refuse the attitude where rich people can do whatever they want and poor people should die. Richness obliges, wealth also obliges, there is need for more responsibility at the top and for more possibilities at the bottom. At the top, freedom shall be used in order to make the country itself richer, and at the bottom, the social safety mesh shall be denser, because hundreds of thousand of people now fall into hopelessness.”

This country has never been so inhuman, as it is today

“It is not the purpose of market economy that a few people shall become richer, but its purpose is to create the opportunity for all of us to rise. But not everybody is an entrepreneur, not everybody has an easy life path, and social responsibility for each other shall be a constituent of the national thinking. The country has never been so inhuman in the past twenty two years, as it is today. When I speak about market, right after that, I speak about the social responsibility, without which, otherwise, Hungary would be an inhuman, unliveable, dirty world. Social matters, social responsibility, freedom of enterprise and lots of, really lot of collaboration may create a liveable world in Hungary.”

DK counts on alliance, but in the absence of an alliance, it will even enter the election alone

“Democratic Coalition counts on an alliance. It definitely does not want to threaten anybody or exercise any pressure on anybody: but it is true that one shall not be completely dumb and, Heaven forbid a situation where we need to enter for the elections alone, but if we need to do so, then a political party has no other choice but going alone. Silently and calmly, without threatening in the background, we will obviously create the conditions for that, by this autumn.”

Hungary shall be made western-oriented in social and cultural terms, because as a subject, one cannot build a civic Hungary

“And then, to finish, let’s talk about what happens after the victory. If I’ve got to cut it short, what we think is that a quiet programme of civil modernisation shall be implemented. Each word has an important meaning there. We would like to see a western-oriented world in Hungary, built on human dignity, mutual acceptance, common responsibility, democracy, the rule of law, and that we shall not be separated by a social and cultural distance, like today, from Saxony, Burgenland, Toscana and I won’t continue the listing. Yes, I think that Hungary shall become western-oriented, not simply in a geographical and political sense, but also in a social and cultural sense. This is what we shall speak about and, for that purpose, we shall re-distribute the responsibility. As a subject, one cannot build a civic Hungary

. It cannot be done! But for that, we must change, ourselves, as well. If we want to break out from this vicious circle, then I must say that a significant portion of Hungary shall participate in thinking over our lives. The Hungarian state is too weak to solve the problems and troubles of millions of families. And the distance between family and family became too large to say that we will take care of each of them, to the same extent.”

We shall return to the policy of reforms, the election shall not be won by left-wing populism, because then, we will fail

“I read the programmes of the opposition parties and movements. I must say: I think we are not yet at the point where we really faced up with reality. You applaud when I say that Hungarian education is in a terrible trouble. You accept that the Hungarian healthcare is almost unable to operate. But tell me, what your answer is if I add another thing, namely that with the expected state of the budget, neither one or the other can get significantly more money than today. How shall we achieve that, as a nurse, one shall not go abroad to be able to feed the family? How shall we achieve that a doctor is not compelled to leave? It is possible to go on with the trick that Orbán applies, according to which the burdens are put, primarily and in a first round, onto the companies, and we are relieved and do not notice that those burdens are charged on us afterwards, in small bits. And the consequence thereof was that the Hungarian economy became frozen. Is Hungary ready to accept that yes, we shall return to the policy of reforms and yes, healthcare shall be transformed and higher education shall be transformed in order to ensure access for everybody, even for the most vulnerable people, and those who can, should participate more directly in its operation. It is possible to beat us a thousand times on the issue of medical contributions and tuition fees. But this leads to the situation that we experience now. Are we courageous enough to talk sincerely with each other or are we going to wait for some more time, hoping that voters might believe that one can become strong without making efforts. It cannot be done! It is not true that an election can be won by left-wing populism only. And if we win an election that way, then we will fail.”

One can fail either as the present government failed because of its lies, or as we were defeated, with the tuition fee and the medical contribution

“Because the present government also failed, in spite of the fact that they still hold power. It failed, because it flunked the country. One can defeat, as we did, with the referendum declared social, and one can fail this way, too. But we fought for a good cause, at least. If we could have won at that time, Hungary would be in a better position now, but today, the country is a captive of a lie. Taxation of high-value estates is not a liberal policy, but a left-wing one. That is a left-wing policy! A generally applicable, reasonable tuition fee at the universities, from which needy people and good students obtain a scholarship to take home more than the amount paid as a tuition fee, that is not a liberal policy! That is a left-wing policy! Let’s stop that obscurantism! Those who want to swear in any case, shall find a sufficient quantity of the respective expressions in the dictionary of Hungarian synonyms, and if that is too much for him, he should read the speech of Őszöd. And it makes sense to fight, because by now, the students say that they also accept some kind of tuition fee. We shall not be looking for programmes that a multitude of voters are ready to accept in a given moment. We shall not be searching principles suiting plurality, because we can win this way only temporarily. We shall try to find plurality while representing our sincere conviction, presenting arguments and without lying. Those who want to court, can find a space for it – I won’t give the name of a square or a street. But what would be the case if in politics we considered each other as grown-up persons and partners? There is no need for a shock therapy.”

The lesson from 2006: a more patient policy is needed, without going into compromises about principles

“We learned a lot from the experiences of 2006. The lesson that I learned is not that one shall give up representing one’s own right, rather I learned that one shall be more patient, allowing more time for the voters, but without going into compromises about the principles. If we do that, we will win. If we win, Hungary will also win. For Hungary to win, all of you will be needed. Soberness, discretion, generosity, commitment. For a new Hungary, for the new Republic!”

 

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49 comments

  1. Darkness at all times?
    Let us see the light!
    The patriotic side prefers blindness. Votes Fidesz and Jobbik blindly.
    Can the good Christians rise up?
    Most of them understand the suffering of the poor classes.
    The progressive students must be the added link.
    The students represent all classes of Hungary.

  2. G. Gulyas:
    “The Fidesz-KDNP party list gained 2.7 million votes
    in 2010. No other party list received so many votes in the past 22 years.”

    1998. MszP+SzDSz 2,747.3 thousand votes
    2002. MszP+SzDSz 2,675.1
    2006 MszP+SzDSz 2,688.3

    2010 Fidesz+KDNP 2,706.0 thousand votes

    As we can see MSzP+SzDSz had more votes in 1998 (they also had 2/3 in Parliament)
    than Fidesz in 2010.

  3. Gulyas: “Fidesz and KDNP might stand on similar political principles but
    they have independent party leadership and political platform.”

    MPs of KDNP are also Fidesz members (dual membership is allowed).

  4. Correction: MSzP+SzDSz votes in the 1994 election as opposed to 1998 election.

    In 1998, the future ruling coalition
    FiDeSz+FKgP+MDF+KDNP got 2,137.1 thousand votes combined.

  5. On Friday Orban said on the radio:

    1. “The EU parliament is not a European place. Last time I was there, I saw politicians shouting with their veins throbbing in their thick neck, and they didn’t even know what they were talking about.”
    2. “Brussels hate us for some reason.”

    Clearly he doesn’t see any connection between 1 and 2…

    Not sure whether it’s true but I have read that Fidesz often considers conflict with Brussels advantageous – it makes unsure voters sympathize with the government.
    It might or might not, but in the long run, such style is destructive for Hungary’s position in Brussels.

  6. “We shall return to the policy of reforms, the election shall not be won by left-wing populism, because then, we will fail”

    “Left-wing populism” being defined as, for example, reducing the plebs’s public utility bills and sticking 2 fingers up at the banks and the Troika?

    Well, yup, Gyurcsany is 100% there with that statement because that particuliar brand of left-wing populism has been *captured* by The Dear Leader and his party.

    But let’s be realistic. Look at recent elections in the EU, a substantial number of people in Italy voted for an ex-clown and Viktor’s role model, Berlusconi. That tells you how the modern electorate thinks in Europe and Fidesz’s only real, meaningful opposition now in Hungary is on the far-right.

  7. London via Győr Calling!

    “You applaud when I say that Hungarian education is in a terrible trouble. You accept that the Hungarian healthcare is almost unable to operate………

    Having witnessed the appalling state of Hungarian healthcare for anyone but the most wealthy – surely this is an Achilles’ heel of Orban’s government?

    His administration has allowed the health service to go from bad to worse to chaotic and it must be a very deep concern for most Hungarians.

    In England politicians neglect our health service at their peril.

    If Gy and co (or kft!) made this one of the central planks of their manifesto – it would go some way in countering Orban’s Big Buy-Off. Health and education are big ticket items on most decent democracy’s wish lists.

    (I use the term ‘central plank of their manifesto’ advisedly – having witnessed planks of wood being used in wards to ‘contain’ patients in hospital wards in Győr.)

    The opposition have got to start thinking like the man on the Győr omnibus about how they can retrieve their democracy – rather than jostling for their own positions in the opposition hierarchy.

    The clock is ticking at one minute to midnight.

    Regards

    Charlie

  8. Gyurcsny egyszer s mindenkorra lejratta magt: Hazudott s az orszg gazdasgt tnkre tette 8 v alatt. Gyurcsny ne adjon msoknak tancsot.

    Dr. Carl Flesch

    Realpstr. 61

    CH-4054 Basel

    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

  9. It is interesting how Gyurczány introduced the story of Radicova´s government in Slovakia. Himself as a „lefty“ seems to be on the side of „righty“ Radicova. On the other side Orban seems to be a good friend of Fico. I think that this illustrate very well that there are no real lefties and righties parties in Central Europe. There are only groups of comrades having interest to earn in politics, occupying momentally free places in the political market. This way how Gyurczány specified his place in politics could have negative consequences for him. But this is only a question of tactics.

    More important is that Gyurczány already had the chance to persuade that his party is the confidential one. He threw this chance away and I think Hungary needs new party with transparent program reflecting clear values and led by new men and women. I am afraid that Gyurczány or „electoral alliance“ related to his name has no capacity to defeat Orban in foreseable elections . But who has? – It seems that Hungary will have to wait until Orban defeat himself.

  10. cjflesch :
    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.
    Dr. Carl Flesch
    Realpstr. 61
    CH-4054 Basel
    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    Thanks for you address. Are you asking us over for dinner? Dr Flesch, I hope you realize that this is an English language blog. I also hope that you put more effort into investigating propaganda techniques, and the doings of Orban also. Let me remind you of Orban less famous quote amongst Fidesz Troopers, “Do not listen what I say [to win the election]!” THis is something what the brave man said to foreign diplomats. To follow up on what you say, you should add: “Orban discredited himself once and for all: He lied, he is ruined the economy in two years. Orban should not run a our country.”
    p.s.: copy and paste is a technique that did not work out for Fidesz’ favourite con man Pal Schmitt either, so always check when keep pasting online from Hungarian fonts. I hope this helps.

  11. @ szomszed: The problem is that in Hungary the “left” or “right” has a blurry outline. Orban and his gang loves to use the other are the left kind of approach, but in reality, his nationalization technique is the worst from the worst “leftist” ideas. Orban’s whole program is built on ideas made popular by regime of Rakosi and Kadar.

  12. @szomszéd – a practical advice: please, forget everything what you’ve heard so far about left or right, try to look things as right or wrong, you’ll be surprised how different the world will look, right away!

    Otherwise, if you ever will follow a true direction according to your political preconceptions, you certainly going to get confused: turn “right” as much as Orbán and you will end up faaar left of everything, more and more Kim Jong-ung-arisch as time goes by.

    Be careful with those directions, will you?

  13. cjflesch :
    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.
    Dr. Carl Flesch
    Realpstr. 61
    CH-4054 Basel
    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    A Fidesznik from the heart of the most thieving nation in modern times.

    Tell me, Dr. Flesch, how did Switzerland attain its high standard of living? Chocolates and watches? Banking fees?
    Or, do you think that stealing the deposits and emptying the deposit boxes of holocaust jews (in order to resell insurance policies to the company at 10 cents on the dollar…) might not have had something to do with Swiss ‘economic’ successes…?

  14. petofi :

    cjflesch :
    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.
    Dr. Carl Flesch
    Realpstr. 61
    CH-4054 Basel
    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    A Fidesznik from the heart of the most thieving nation in modern times.
    Tell me, Dr. Flesch, how did Switzerland attain its high standard of living? Chocolates and watches? Banking fees?
    Or, do you think that stealing the deposits and emptying the deposit boxes of holocaust jews (in order to resell insurance policies to the company at 10 cents on the dollar…) might not have had something to do with Swiss ‘economic’ successes…?

    woww I think what you are saying here petofi is totally off subject, and it has nothing to do with the comment Flesch put down. I wish you would not mix in your personal feelings about an other country at this point. Whatever Switzerland’s stand was or is, is totally irrelevant to this comment or to this blog at this point.

  15. cjflesch :

    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.

    Dr. Carl Flesch

    Realpstr. 61

    CH-4054 Basel

    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    OK, I will tell you also what I said once already. Gyurcsány became prime minister only in late 2004 and resigned in March 209. So, forget about the eight years. If one wants to have a meaningful dialogue one at least must be familiar with the facts.

  16. Some1 :

    petofi :

    cjflesch :
    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.
    Dr. Carl Flesch
    Realpstr. 61
    CH-4054 Basel
    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    A Fidesznik from the heart of the most thieving nation in modern times.
    Tell me, Dr. Flesch, how did Switzerland attain its high standard of living? Chocolates and watches? Banking fees?
    Or, do you think that stealing the deposits and emptying the deposit boxes of holocaust jews (in order to resell insurance policies to the company at 10 cents on the dollar…) might not have had something to do with Swiss ‘economic’ successes…?

    woww I think what you are saying here petofi is totally off subject, and it has nothing to do with the comment Flesch put down. I wish you would not mix in your personal feelings about an other country at this point. Whatever Switzerland’s stand was or is, is totally irrelevant to this comment or to this blog at this point.

    This may be too subtle for you, Some1, but where one comes from–ie. the society one grew up in and lives in–impacts on a person’s morality and ethics. Got that? Now let’s go a step further: if you read by previous entry, I went over why the characterization of Gyurcsany’s
    “we lied and lied” speech of 2006 has been totally twisted and misrepresented. A straight
    thinking person would’ve figured that out him/her self. Hence, the connection. Got it?
    The Swiss have greatly profited from the second world war. The way the Swiss banks
    reacted to Bronfman’s attack on them was disgusting. They only, finally, deigned to listen to Bronfman, the President of the World Jewish Congress, was because, as a billionaire, he was highly influential in banking circles in the US. The final settlement–while seeming impressive at 1.5 billion dollars–was about 3% of what it really should’ve been. (Allow me to say at this point that that amount, to which all Swiss banks had to pony up, was a paltry sum. In that same year, I believe it was 1994/5, Credit Suisse declared a QUATERLY PROFIT of 2 billion dollars. And yes, no doubt that profit was greatly dependent on the billions the swiss had stolen from jewish accounts.)

    So you see, Swiss facade of ‘honesty’, and ‘integrity’ is one of those great lies Goebbels must’ve learned from.

    Now then, Mss Some1, you want me to listen to the morbid opinion of one whose rotted roots comes from such a mildewed society? Ahem.

    Madam, spend your self-righteousness somewhere else.

  17. @Petofi, you are absolutely right but lets take one step at a time.

    Flesch is probably an old fart who emigrated to a cushy country. Now he’s to lazy to read the news and sees only the commies-and-hungarians dichotomy.

    I don’t think he’s worth to argue with. He doesn’t even know who Gyurcsany is.

    You are right but take a deep breath. Lets do it one moron at a time …

  18. Der Mr petofi, You are not any different than the worst of the Fidesz Troopers. You give bad name to those who are simply fighting for eau laity. You undermined the Roma, you undermine various nations by your generalization. Your “platform” is as extreme from an other angle as the many Fidesz members. Your style also very much aligned with the worst trolls we seen on this board. Maybe you should have some cocktail with them, as by criticizing the Roma and all the nasty foreign countries is up in your alley for different reasons. I stopped reading your nasty post after you get into patronizing blah blah blah. If I want to read something unintelligent, I will stick with Fidesz, evn though you are getting better about by the minute Mr petofi!

  19. Mutt :
    @Petofi, you are absolutely right but lets take one step at a time.
    Flesch is probably an old fart who emigrated to a cushy country. Now he’s to lazy to read the news and sees only the commies-and-hungarians dichotomy.
    I don’t think he’s worth to argue with. He doesn’t even know who Gyurcsany is.
    You are right but take a deep breath. Lets do it one moron at a time …

    Agreed. But why do people like Some1 take the side of such outrageous opinion/person?
    THAT’S what irks me.
    As for one moron at a time, you just can’t convert or educate them: you have to wait for them to die out. So….consider the next 20 years as a rightoff…short of a miracle or an act of god.

    But if you want to twist your mind around a thought, here’s one: Hungary is the best argument against stringent gun-control laws. It’s not that I’m for sub-machine guns in the hands of the general public, but the US culture of gun possession is based on the right of citizens to defend themselves against an over-oppressive government, such as the Hungarian one. When the populace has guns it serves, to whatever limited extent, as a warning of the possiblity of general violence. Without it, as in Hungary where the guns are in the hands of the police or Garda, the government shows no self-restraint and becomes the sole perpatrator of general lawlessness.

    Interesting, no?

  20. Mutt :
    @Petofi, you are absolutely right but lets take one step at a time.
    Flesch is probably an old fart who emigrated to a cushy country. Now he’s to lazy to read the news and sees only the commies-and-hungarians dichotomy.
    I don’t think he’s worth to argue with. He doesn’t even know who Gyurcsany is.
    You are right but take a deep breath. Lets do it one moron at a time …

    So we should bang up on everyone who posts from the USA. I would like to remind you of the Gold Train. I am sorry, I just do not get the point that we would endorse or dismiss someone based on what country the person is posting from. Flesch’ post is idiotic the least, but not because Switzerland’s economical or moral doing. Flesch simply have no idea what he is talking about. If he would of posted from Finland would that make him any more credible? I wish we would not encourage someone like Petofi with a pat on the back every time he says something nasty just because it is against the Fidesz. I am sending this post from Canada. Let me quote here form Wikipedia, simply because it sums up the story well:
    “The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 937 German Jewish refugees after they were denied entry to Cuba, the United States and Canada, until finally accepted to various countries of Europe. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship’s passengers died in concentration camps.” Can I still post here because Canada did not let the Jews in? CAn someone who simpathize from Canada or from the States can post here without their country being “attacked” or only those can post here who can prove that their country did not benefit from WWII and/or always supported the Jews?

  21. Some1 :
    Der Mr petofi, You are not any different than the worst of the Fidesz Troopers. You give bad name to those who are simply fighting for eau laity. You undermined the Roma, you undermine various nations by your generalization. Your “platform” is as extreme from an other angle as the many Fidesz members. Your style also very much aligned with the worst trolls we seen on this board. Maybe you should have some cocktail with them, as by criticizing the Roma and all the nasty foreign countries is up in your alley for different reasons. I stopped reading your nasty post after you get into patronizing blah blah blah. If I want to read something unintelligent, I will stick with Fidesz, evn though you are getting better about by the minute Mr petofi!

    Wow, you must be burning hot! Your English has slumped into semi-literacy.

  22. petofi :

    Mutt :
    @Petofi, you are absolutely right but lets take one step at a time.
    Flesch is probably an old fart who emigrated to a cushy country. Now he’s to lazy to read the news and sees only the commies-and-hungarians dichotomy.
    I don’t think he’s worth to argue with. He doesn’t even know who Gyurcsany is.
    You are right but take a deep breath. Lets do it one moron at a time …

    Agreed. But why do people like Some1 take the side of such outrageous opinion/person?
    THAT’S what irks me.
    As for one moron at a time, you just can’t convert or educate them: you have to wait for them to die out. So….consider the next 20 years as a rightoff…short of a miracle or an act of god.
    But if you want to twist your mind around a thought, here’s one: Hungary is the best argument against stringent gun-control laws. It’s not that I’m for sub-machine guns in the hands of the general public, but the US culture of gun possession is based on the right of citizens to defend themselves against an over-oppressive government, such as the Hungarian one. When the populace has guns it serves, to whatever limited extent, as a warning of the possiblity of general violence. Without it, as in Hungary where the guns are in the hands of the police or Garda, the government shows no self-restraint and becomes the sole perpatrator of general lawlessness.
    Interesting, no?

    I di not take the side of Flesch. read my post if you can read! I am not with Flesch but I am against that you are attacking him because he is posting from Switzerland. Read my post fully before you putting things in my mouth. I am posting on this blog longer then you do, but you know what, I am not falling for this general hate that you always try to bring in here. You attacked the Roma and you attacked the Hungarians at some point because they do not do enough.I asked you many times to let us know what do you do exactly, and you never answered. You keep generalizing, and getting hurt like a baby when someone tells you to back off. Stick with the topics, and if you have something to critique do that because you have to say something about the subject and not because you want to get into personal attacks based on the postal code of someone. If what you say holds up it would hold up without that too.
    ps.: If you would of read my #15 comment that was before your blahblahblah it would be clear to you, that I did not support Flesch. Well, I guess I cannot expect that from someone like you.

  23. petofi :

    Some1 :
    Der Mr petofi, You are not any different than the worst of the Fidesz Troopers. You give bad name to those who are simply fighting for eau laity. You undermined the Roma, you undermine various nations by your generalization. Your “platform” is as extreme from an other angle as the many Fidesz members. Your style also very much aligned with the worst trolls we seen on this board. Maybe you should have some cocktail with them, as by criticizing the Roma and all the nasty foreign countries is up in your alley for different reasons. I stopped reading your nasty post after you get into patronizing blah blah blah. If I want to read something unintelligent, I will stick with Fidesz, evn though you are getting better about by the minute Mr petofi!

    Wow, you must be burning hot! Your English has slumped into semi-literacy.

    I am fine with that. I am actually very cold, just came in from the bbq, and it is darn cold outside. (I guess if you run out from Fidesz Troopers you will attack anyone. THat is how Fidesz started… enemies everywhere.)
    Subject is closed.

  24. Some1 :

    Mutt :
    @Petofi, you are absolutely right but lets take one step at a time.
    Flesch is probably an old fart who emigrated to a cushy country. Now he’s to lazy to read the news and sees only the commies-and-hungarians dichotomy.
    I don’t think he’s worth to argue with. He doesn’t even know who Gyurcsany is.
    You are right but take a deep breath. Lets do it one moron at a time …

    So we should bang up on everyone who posts from the USA. I would like to remind you of the Gold Train. I am sorry, I just do not get the point that we would endorse or dismiss someone based on what country the person is posting from. Flesch’ post is idiotic the least, but not because Switzerland’s economical or moral doing. Flesch simply have no idea what he is talking about. If he would of posted from Finland would that make him any more credible? I wish we would not encourage someone like Petofi with a pat on the back every time he says something nasty just because it is against the Fidesz. I am sending this post from Canada. Let me quote here form Wikipedia, simply because it sums up the story well:
    “The MS St. Louis was a German ocean liner most notable for a single voyage in 1939, in which her captain, Gustav Schröder, tried to find homes for 937 German Jewish refugees after they were denied entry to Cuba, the United States and Canada, until finally accepted to various countries of Europe. Historians have estimated that, after their return to Europe, approximately a quarter of the ship’s passengers died in concentration camps.” Can I still post here because Canada did not let the Jews in? CAn someone who simpathize from Canada or from the States can post here without their country being “attacked” or only those can post here who can prove that their country did not benefit from WWII and/or always supported the Jews?

    Oy vay tzrurelay!
    I see that the basics of the English language escapes you…so what am I doing expecting some ‘subtlety’?
    First off, Miss Little One, I grew up in Canada and lived there for 45 years, so there’s not much you can tell me about the country. Anti-semitism? Still exists, especially in Quebec,
    but it’s nowhere as all-pervasive as in Hungary.
    And yes, Prime Minister Mackenzie King was an anti-semite and wouldn’t let the jews in (and this from a man whose mistress was jewish!)
    And the jews were not let in to the US either. True. But, listen, anti-semitism is a world-wide sport. Who wouldn’t want to prove G-d wrong for choosing them? Hell, they’re worse culturally than the swiss, no matter that they win more nobel prizes, pulitzer prizes, degrees and honors than any other group in the world–by golly, they’re rats and vermin. Ask the mustachios of Hungary like Kover and Pinter. They’ll tell ya.

    (Have you got any old, well-thumbed copies of Nyiro or Wass you’d like to send me?)

  25. To Some 1 and spectator: As for the „left“ or „right“ issues: I only wanted to express my belief that (from the tactical point of view) it was not right from Gyurczany when he – as (formally) left-wing politician declares (although indirectly) his sympathy to (formally) right-wing politician Radicova. It will contribute to even more sizable disorientation of potential voters. I understand that the story of Radicova´s government has a value for his party-colleagues but it will operate counterproductively towards general public.

    Specifically to spectator: Thank you for your practical advice and directions, unfortunately they are useless. I would like to assure you that I have no political preconceptions. Even if I had some in the past, living in Central Europe would have made me a political preconceptions free man. My main message was my certitude that Gyurczany is not the right man who could defeat Orban and certainly not in next elections. He can offer the most sofisticated program ever but it will not do – people will not trust him. The result of his governance was disastrous – Orban´s constitutional majority in parliament with respective consequences. Probably his actual activities were largely misinterpreted, even though his name is forever linked to the facts that led to Orban´s victory in the elections.Therefore he has no chance – to my great sorrow.

  26. @ szomszed, I agree with you that it is very unlikely that Gyurcsany could run against Orban. I take for word that you “have no political preconceptions”, and because of it, I would like to ask, who would you vote for? I understand that you want something new, but the reality is that the “new” would have to be something very organic, and young in order in some way not to be associated with either to the “left” or to the “right”. Even the young students who were protesting in front of Fidesz were accused by the Speaker of the House of having fathers who supported the communist. What I am saying is that the whole system is so corrupted by the Fidesz PR that it is impossible for anyone to overcome this obstacle without being tainted. Even on this blog amongst those who are against Fidesz, you will find that there are so many differences. Even in “this opposition” is hard to unite. I guess it is a Hungarian thing…

  27. petofi :

    cjflesch :
    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.
    Dr. Carl Flesch
    Realpstr. 61
    CH-4054 Basel
    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    A Fidesznik from the heart of the most thieving nation in modern times.
    Tell me, Dr. Flesch, how did Switzerland attain its high standard of living? Chocolates and watches? Banking fees?
    Or, do you think that stealing the deposits and emptying the deposit boxes of holocaust jews (in order to resell insurance policies to the company at 10 cents on the dollar…) might not have had something to do with Swiss ‘economic’ successes…?

    Switzerland’s biggest industry is managing multi-billion $$$ projects. They earn more doing this than they do with banking.

  28. Some 1, with “no political preconceptions” I ment that for my decision to whom I give my vote it is not important whether the respective parties label themselves with „left“, „right“ or whatever else, but only what they really do. I understand that it is extremely dificult to establish new party led by new leaders, but people know that it is unrealistic to expect that an „old dog will present new tricks“. That´s why I am so sceptical of Gy´s political promises. Of course, I agree that it is Hungarian thing, this what we are doing are only non-commital speculations.

  29. To Szomszéd, Of course, you’re right. Gyurcsány has no chance to defeat Orbán but he himself knows that full well. What a sad story: an excellent program, sane, responsible political attitude and a man who could offer solutions to Hungary’s present predicament but the chance was missed. Very sad.

  30. Eva S. Balogh :
    To Szomszéd, Of course, you’re right. Gyurcsány has no chance to defeat Orbán but he himself knows that full well. What a sad story: an excellent program, sane, responsible political attitude and a man who could offer solutions to Hungary’s present predicament but the chance was missed. Very sad.

    Sanity has hardly ever been Hungary’s strong suit.
    Yes, they missed the boat with Gyurcsany primarily because of the back-stabbing members of his own party, and the numb-mindedness of the electorate led by the Catholic church and that ‘pope’ in white clothing–Orban Viktor, the First.

    To compound errors–but the country is and has been sorely in need of psychological attention–the electorate will again miss the boat (how many of these ‘boats’ can one find on the Duna, anyway?) with Bajnai, the goose
    murderer. Geese aside, Bajnai could have this country in shape in two or three years.

  31. I should add here–and god knows why Hungarians can’t see this–the two parties, crime members of the same conspiracy to defraud the citizens–will attack anyone who dares attempt to reform party or government. Let’s make this even clearer: MSZP and FIDESZ are co-conspirators.

    Are there enough toothpicks for 19 million eyes?

  32. Thanks for the answer szomszéd!

    Some minor issues, though.
    While I agree that the name of Gyurcsány won’t work in Hungary in anytime of the foreseeable future, he already defeated Orbán once, not to mention the memorable debate – the very last one which Orbán had courage to participate in, ever.

    What I saying is, he is the only person in sight who stand a rhetorical chance.
    I can even understand the desire to find an adequate leader with no previous political life, the best and brightest ever, but it’s only a dream, you like it or not.
    Politicians doesn’t born ready-made, they become to be one, or else.
    Conclusively, if the Hungarian opposition unable to shape up and use their best assets – yes, even Gyurcsány – they’ll go down before even started.

    While I also understand the need of clear definitions, I totally disagree with the left/right simplistic categorisations. I have met with people from the ‘left’ who were ‘right’ and from the ‘right’ who were ‘wrong’, and everything in between, every shade of the political spectrum is stained beyond recognition. Just another ‘Hungarian thing’ I would say.

    What led to Orbán’s victory is the grave mistake to underestimate the importance of communication and/or unable to do it right – as I see it, and they still continuing on the same path, probably to the very same outcome – unfortunately.

  33. petofi :
    Are there enough toothpicks for 19 million eyes?

    Will chopsticks do?
    There is a Great Leap to the East is going on, you know…

  34. LwiiH :

    petofi :

    cjflesch :
    Gyurcs�ny egyszer �s mindenkorra lej�ratta mag�t: Hazudott �s az orsz�g gazdas�g�t t�nkre tette 8 �v alatt. Gyurcs�ny ne adjon m�soknak tan�csot.
    Dr. Carl Flesch
    Realpstr. 61
    CH-4054 Basel
    Tel: +41(0)61 3017740

    A Fidesznik from the heart of the most thieving nation in modern times.
    Tell me, Dr. Flesch, how did Switzerland attain its high standard of living? Chocolates and watches? Banking fees?
    Or, do you think that stealing the deposits and emptying the deposit boxes of holocaust jews (in order to resell insurance policies to the company at 10 cents on the dollar…) might not have had something to do with Swiss ‘economic’ successes…?

    Switzerland’s biggest industry is managing multi-billion $$$ projects. They earn more doing this than they do with banking.

    And no doubt, during the holocaust they were managing the ovens, I suppose.

  35. spectator :

    petofi :
    Are there enough toothpicks for 19 million eyes?

    Will chopsticks do?
    There is a Great Leap to the East is going on, you know…

    No, I won’t go for that–better that they continue blind than denude the country of trees…

  36. spectator :
    Thanks for the answer szomszéd!
    Some minor issues, though.
    While I agree that the name of Gyurcsány won’t work in Hungary in anytime of the foreseeable future, he already defeated Orbán once, not to mention the memorable debate – the very last one which Orbán had courage to participate in, ever.
    What I saying is, he is the only person in sight who stand a rhetorical chance.
    I can even understand the desire to find an adequate leader with no previous political life, the best and brightest ever, but it’s only a dream, you like it or not.
    Politicians doesn’t born ready-made, they become to be one, or else.
    Conclusively, if the Hungarian opposition unable to shape up and use their best assets – yes, even Gyurcsány – they’ll go down before even started.
    While I also understand the need of clear definitions, I totally disagree with the left/right simplistic categorisations. I have met with people from the ‘left’ who were ‘right’ and from the ‘right’ who were ‘wrong’, and everything in between, every shade of the political spectrum is stained beyond recognition. Just another ‘Hungarian thing’ I would say.
    What led to Orbán’s victory is the grave mistake to underestimate the importance of communication and/or unable to do it right – as I see it, and they still continuing on the same path, probably to the very same outcome – unfortunately.

    I would disagree. What led to Orban’s victory is his capacity for the Great Lie. Among the many, I can quote the accusations re 2006, and the infamous to-do over ‘we lied’ quote. His lying, in the first case; and his twisting of the truth, in the second, is what won it for him.

    Pity the dumb Hungarian shmucks who readily partake of his poisons with soup spoons…

  37. London via Győr (still!) Calling!

    O/T just curious!

    When Hungarians quote – or denote irony maybe – you put the start quotes ‘on the floor’! (my term!)

    For example “As for the „left“ or „right“ issues……” as Szomszéd did above.

    Does this have any different meaning from “As for the “left“ or “right“ issues……”?

    I recently proof-read someone’s CV applying for a post in England – in English – and these ‘on the floor’ quotes were everywhere.

    As I corrected them she was most unbelieving!

    They don’t even exist on an English key board – they need a ‘special symbol’ insert.

    Englishman need explanation please!

    Regards

    Charlie

  38. CharlieH :
    London via Győr (still!) Calling!
    O/T just curious!
    When Hungarians quote – or denote irony maybe – you put the start quotes ‘on the floor’! (my term!)
    For example “As for the „left“ or „right“ issues……” as Szomszéd did above.
    Does this have any different meaning from “As for the “left“ or “right“ issues……”?
    I recently proof-read someone’s CV applying for a post in England – in English – and these ‘on the floor’ quotes were everywhere.
    As I corrected them she was most unbelieving!
    They don’t even exist on an English key board – they need a ‘special symbol’ insert.
    Englishman need explanation please!
    Regards
    Charlie

    CharlieH, there is no difference in meanings. There are only different ways of writting quotes in different languages. I usually use Slovak keyboard (sometimes Czech, German, Russian or French). In this case I simply forgot to change the keyboard from the Slovak one to English and ‘on the floor’ quotes were the result. Thank you for your message,so far I even did not realize that this could be a problem. I am afraid there are also other problems with my English, I apologize for them too.

  39. London via Győr (still!) Responding!

    szomszéd! Thanks for the clarification – very interesting. And don’t change!

    I was just curious – in case I was missing a nuance.

    And your English is very good too – you explain yourself well – no problems there.

    (You are speaking to a ‘Little Englander’ who’s Hungarian vocabulary has not yet reached double figures! I was trying to say the Hungarian word for ‘seven’ to some indigenes the other day and only when I held up seven fingers did they understand! I thought there was no difference to the way I said it from theirs. When I explained to my partner she told me in no uncertain terms that I was NOT saying ‘seven’! – Us English just can’t hear those different Hungarian ‘micro’ sounds!)

    So a long way to go then, for me!

    Regards

    Charlie

  40. @ szomszed: Don’t you dare not to post because of your English! DId you ever read my rants? I am the worst to go back and correct my grammar. It is half cooked, like Hungarian thinking, and English writing. You are hundred times better than I am.

  41. @petofi
    “I would disagree. What led to Orban’s victory is his capacity for the Great Lie. ”

    – The only disagreement here is in some semiotics: this is wat I called ‘communication’, and this is what the other side couldn’t handle at all.
    They treated Orbán and his unholy bunch as civilized gentlemen – a regrettable mistake.
    They should’ve consult with an epidemologist before the orange-fever totally got out of control, now the majority of the population living lobotomized, without the slightest hope of recovery.
    Even if by some miracle the opposition would be able to unite and managed to dethrone Orbán, it would take eons to re-civilize the country, as I see it.

  42. A friend of mine is a very stereotypical Hungarian if there is such a beast. He only speaks Hungarian, gets most of his news from Class-FM, MTV HirTV… He’s not so interested in politics so no ATV, Klub Radio stuff. So it was a wee bit of a surprise that few times we met he’s brought up the subject of politics. I’d guess that he’s one of those undecided voters. He voted for OV but he’s now sorted out that OV isn’t good for Hungary but the recent announcement that the central bank is going to use 3.X billion €s to convert euro and swiss franc loans and get the banks lending again would be enough to have him vote Fidesz mostly because the previous regime and central bank policies have seemingly only brought misery. You see, he’s the only one working in his extended family. His wife, daughter, son-in-law have all lost their jobs and he’s now supporting the lot. They’ve no hope in finding new jobs… So it seems this move by the central bank provides hope. In fact I’d almost suggest that the central bank is doing what is should have been doing all along…. exactly what the US did in that it tried to expand the money supply to help grow the economy out of it’s current set of problems which seems to be working out just fine. Mean while the EU’s GDP just keeps shrinking and they’ve now with the IMF just bullied a Euro zone country in a manner that makes the ECB, the IMF, european finance ministers and the Cypriot government look dangerously incompetent. Now you have to ask, did OV do the right thing in telling the ECB and the IMF to stuff it? This is a great win for him.. great fodder for him to use. So if my friend confused? Well, to the point that maybe he’s not so undecided anymore.. after all, what is the opposition saying about all this??? Anything?

  43. CharlieH :
    London via Győr (still!) Responding!
    szomszéd! Thanks for the clarification – very interesting. And don’t change!
    I was just curious – in case I was missing a nuance.
    And your English is very good too – you explain yourself well – no problems there.
    (You are speaking to a ‘Little Englander’ who’s Hungarian vocabulary has not yet reached double figures! I was trying to say the Hungarian word for ‘seven’ to some indigenes the other day and only when I held up seven fingers did they understand! I thought there was no difference to the way I said it from theirs. When I explained to my partner she told me in no uncertain terms that I was NOT saying ‘seven’! – Us English just can’t hear those different Hungarian ‘micro’ sounds!)
    So a long way to go then, for me!
    Regards
    Charlie

    The Hungarian word for 7 is very similar to the English word “hate”, if that may help in the future.

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