Another blunder by Fidesz-Jobbik: Naming a street after the anti-Semite Cécile Tormay

It was only a couple of weeks ago that Viktor Orbán promised zero tolerance of antisemitism in Hungary. Although attendees of the World Jewish Congress appreciated the resolute words, they reserved judgment on the Hungarian government’s policy pending visible signs of the promised zero tolerance.

And what happened? Budapest’s city government decided to name a street after the nationalist writer Cécile Tormay (1876-1937), an avowed anti-Semite. Ronald S. Lauder, president of the WJC, reacted with consternation to the news.”This decision by the Budapest city government, which is headed by a member of Prime Minister Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz party, puts into question the pledge given to the Jewish community that anti-Semitism will be fought vigorously by the Hungarian authorities. However, it seems that they need to be reminded that Cécile Tormay was not only one of Miklós Horthy’s favorite writers. She was also a notorious anti-Semite.” Lauder urged “Prime Minister Orbán to speak with the mayor of Budapest, who is a member of his party, and to persuade him to withdraw the plan for the naming of a street after Cécile Tormay.”

Formally, Mayor István Tarlós is not a member of Fidesz, but naturally he is Orbán’s man. Running as an independent was only a political ploy to make Tarlós more acceptable to voters who would under no circumstances vote for a Fidesz candidate.

Today’s WJC press release mentions Tormay’s most objectionable work, An Outlaw’s Diary, published in 1921. This book by the “Grand Dame of  the Nation,” as his admirers called her, was translated into English–in addition to German and French thanks to the generosity of the Hungarian government–in 1923 and is available online.

I regret that the blog format doesn’t allow me to write a longer study of this woman’s political and personal career. Both are fascinating. Women, especially women of her social class, couldn’t really be active participants in political life in the interwar period. Yet from 1918 until her death in 1937 Tormay was the head of the largest right-wing women’s organization, the Magyar Asszonyok Nemzeti Szövetsége (MANSZ) with a membership of half a million. In addition, she was editor of the right-wing national-Christian literary magazine Napkelet (Orient) that was established with government money as a counterpart to the liberal, urbanite, western-oriented Nyugat, the leading literary magazine (1908-1941) which, by the way, is available online. That wasn’t exactly a normal career for the daughter of a man who had been ennobled by Franz Joseph sometime at the end of the nineteenth century.

Cécile Tormay (1875-1937) / Wikipedia

Cécile Tormay (1875-1937) Wikipedia

Her first works appeared after 1899. Her best effort was a novel (1914) entitled A régi ház (The old house) that met with considerable critical success. In his obituary of Tormay, Antal Szerb (1901-1945), the famous literary historian and critic, talked about the book with appreciation. Szerb only regretted that after the war Tormay turned her attention to politics. “She proved to be so active and energetic that many turned away from Cecile Tormay, the writer.” It was a polite way of saying that the literary elite couldn’t identify with someone who espoused antisemitism and fascism.

Judit Kádár, a literary historian, has studied Tormay’s works and politics. The couple of articles of hers that I read portray Tormay as a vicious anti-Semite infatuated with Mussolini and fascism. Kádár portrays her organization, MANSZ, as “a fascist organization,” invoking Juan J. Linz’s well-known definition: “hyper-nationalist, often pan-nationalist, anti-parliamentary, anti-liberal, anti-communist, populist and therefore anti-proletarian, partly anti-capitalist and anti-bourgeois, anti-clerical or at least non-clerical movement with the aim of national social integration through a single party and corporative representation not always equally emphasized, with a distinctive style and rhetoric, it relies on activist cadres ready for violent action combined with electoral participation to gain power with totalitarian goals by a combination of legal and violent tactics.”

I think Tormay would happily have accepted the label. In 1922 she wrote: “Look at Italy! Will they get to where we’ve arrived? Let’s hope so!” She claimed to be a forerunner of Italian fascism. As editor of Napkelet and Magyar Asszony she regularly published pro-fascist articles. In 1932 she personally greeted Mussolini, celebrating the tenth anniversary of the Marcia su Roma.

Her support of the Horthy regime yielded numerous benefits. In 1935 after the death of Marie Curie, Hungary delegated her to one of the committees of the League of Nations. In 1937 they nominated her for the Nobel Prize in Literature. (Eugene O’Neill received it that year.)

In the last few days, several foreign and Hungarian Jewish organizations raised their voices against naming a street after this notorious antisemitic and fascist writer. Mazsihisz, the Hungarian organization of Jewish religious communities, also felt it necessary to dwell on Tormay’s alleged lesbianism. Indeed, in 1925 there was a scandal that involved her and her friend, Countess Raphael Zichy. Zichy’s husband accused them of having a sexual liaison. The two women sued him. They eventually won and Zichy ended up in jail for a year and a half. Just recently a Pécs judge wrote a book on the trial and came to the conclusion that the verdict was correct. Zichy didn’t have solid proof. Others remembered differently. Apparently, Horthy’s personal intervention saved Cécile Tormay.

I don’t quite understand what Tormay’s sexual preferences have to do with her political views or her antisemitism. It would have been quite enough to quote a few choice passages from The Outlaw’s Diary. But even Judit Kádár makes a connection between her alleged hatred of men and her antisemitism, which I find forced. But I should probably re-read The Outlaw’s Diary. The first time around I read it as a historical document for the years 1918-1920. Perhaps it’s time to look at it again from a different perspective.

Finally, a few words about István Tarlós, the mayor, and Fidesz-Jobbik cooperation on the Budapest City Council. Outlandish ideas, like naming a street after Cécile Tormay, usually originate with the Jobbik members who then receive the support of the Fidesz delegation. Together they have a majority on the council. Tarlós, an engineer without much background in the liberal arts, readily (and I suspect often out of ignorance) obliges.

After Mazsihisz asked Tarlós to reconsider his decision to support naming a street after Tormay, he quickly backed down. He announced that he will suggest that the decision be reexamined. But it remains an embarrassment for Hungary.

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88 comments

  1. Csaba K. Zoltani :
    The objection to the writings of Cecile Tormay stem from her reaction to the atrocities on innocent civilians committed by and on behalf of Bela Kun. This seems to be an inconvenient fact that is regularly ‘overlooked’.

    THe objection you have “the atrocities on innocent civilians committed by and on behalf of” Miklos Horthy, did not stop some Hungarians and the Hungarian government to name streets, and erect statues for him. I hope you will be kind enough to copy and paste here your objections you sent / posted on various places. We would love to read and learn your balanced point of view.

    Also, I do have a problem wit the atrocities committed by Kun and his gang. For that matter I do have a problem with extremism, and hypocrisy. I am sure many on this board share my opinion about this.

  2. “Some1:
    It always fills me with great sadness to read comments like this. Why not to embrace the those who are actually raise their voices against the regime, versus denying their existence?
    We do have two regulars on this blog who often participate in various demonstrations in Hungary, and they often send us photos and/or small report about what is happening. Often we hear about the demonstrations from their first even before it hits the news.
    Instead of bringing attention to the events, saying that nothing is going on is not helpful, more the opposite.
    Please support those who speak up against the Orban regime by talking about them, and about the activism, versus saying that they do not exist!”

    Right on. There is resistance. Many of us ended up being harassed by the police. Thanks Some1

  3. Tappanch: “The red terror had hundreds of victims (between 200 and 300 hundred), the white terror had thousands.”

    Based on what information??? It is easy to throw numbers on the table without proof.

  4. Csaba K. Zoltani :The objection to the writings of Cecile Tormay stem from her reaction to the atrocities on innocent civilians committed by and on behalf of Bela Kun. This seems to be an inconvenient fact that is regularly ‘overlooked’.Toponymy is one of the privileges of governing. In Transylvania, in Nagyvarad (Oradea) even though about one fourth of the population is Hungarian, only 4% of the street names are Hungarian. Similar statistics hold for Kolozsvar (Cluj-Napoca). It would be interesting to know how other multi-ethnic and cultural societies deal with place names. For example, how many of the street names of Jerusalem remind of the Palestinian presence?

    Nope. The objection comes from the fact that she, at least in An Outlaw’s Diary, blames “the Jews” for everything. Worse, she attempts to back up her claim by resorting to an an-historic, racial-religious, theory. The book is an anti-semitic rag; it should probably be studied, even be republished with a foreword bringing perspective… But to celebrate its author in the public space is a shame.

  5. wolfi :
    @Petöfi (OT):
    Csabai kolbasz is still ok – we often bring it to our friends in Germany – and for those “who don’t like it hot” we bring Gyulai …
    Bon appetit!
    PS: I like them both – but with some dark German bread – another reason to go shopping at Aldi …

    @Wolfi,

    If you like good bread, go to ‘a table’ and buy the ‘pain normande’-it’s to die for. My regular breakfast is two slices of the bread, toasted, buttered, with sneedling. Try it.
    As for the Csabai, I think it was Gyulai I used to buy; but at some point I got the smoked rather than the cured variety and didn’t like it. Can you still get cured Csabai?

  6. Csaba K. Zoltani :
    The objection to the writings of Cecile Tormay stem from her reaction to the atrocities on innocent civilians committed by and on behalf of Bela Kun. This seems to be an inconvenient fact that is regularly ‘overlooked’.

    Zoltani, please enlighten me, because I don’t seem to know my own views apparently.

    My objection against this anti-Semitic bitch has nothing to do with Bela Kun, who also belongs to the trash bin of the Hungarian history, next to Tormay.

    You are out of your mind, if you think the people who object to your idols think positively about Kun or the Soveit Republic in 1919 for that matter.

    Just to make sure you know it: non-Jewish Hungarians also hate anti-Semites.

  7. SOTD (Shame of the Day)

    The infamous principal of the English Language High School in Balatonalmadi, Tunde Bacsi, is in the news again. She banned Professor Agnes Heller to give a lecture on ethics to the students in English.

    This is the same Fidesz commissar, a prominent local official of the Hungarian Reformed Church, who interrogated the students a few months back and created mysterious “notes” on them. She was installed by the Fidesz officials against the will of the majority of both teachers and parents.

    I can’t find the words.

    By the way 52% of the parents elected religious education in schools this year instead of the non-denominational “ethics” classes. Christian nation. My butt.

  8. Tyrker:

    „Compare and contrast this with the behaviour of Slovakia, which actively participated in the operations, sending three divisions to fight alongside the Wehrmacht against the unfortunate Poles.“

    You should have better avoided this sentence because it is redundant in this context and its content is pretty biased. But when you have mentioned that case – these „unfortunate Poles“ occupied parts of Slovakia shotly before (btw. it was in close cooperation with Hungary which occupied large teritory in the south). Slovak troops returned back after their liberation about two weeks later and the campaign had practically finished.

    (This should in no way be seen as an apology for Slovak participation on the German campaign in the east during the WWII).

  9. There will be a demonstration on Sunday at 2 PM organized by teacher and civil organizations against Fidesz’s education policies. THey meet at the Pest side of the Chain Bridge.
    Excellent!

  10. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    Csaba K. Zoltani :The objection to the writings of Cecile Tormay stem from her reaction to the atrocities on innocent civilians committed by and on behalf of Bela Kun. This seems to be an inconvenient fact that is regularly ‘overlooked’.Toponymy is one of the privileges of governing. In Transylvania, in Nagyvarad (Oradea) even though about one fourth of the population is Hungarian, only 4% of the street names are Hungarian. Similar statistics hold for Kolozsvar (Cluj-Napoca). It would be interesting to know how other multi-ethnic and cultural societies deal with place names.

    Budapest used to be 30% Jewish, and since so many streets are being renamed right now, how many of the proposed names are Jewish?

  11. Mutt :
    By the way 52% of the parents elected religious education in schools this year instead of the non-denominational “ethics” classes. Christian nation. My butt.

    We voted with out feet to not subject our kids to “ethics”, “religion” or writers with questionable histories. How does that show up in this poll? Fortunately we have choice were as unfortunately others don’t ‘cos if they did I’m sure many would now be opt’ing for it.

  12. Dr Balogh gives a reference for the Tappanch supposed “thousands” of victims of the white terror….however the reference has somewhat different numbers:.

    “Név
    szerint 365 emberről lehet bizonyítani, hogy kétséget kizáróan a Nemzeti Hadsereghez
    köthető tiszti különítmények okozták a halálukat; a pontosabb szám további kutatásokat
    igényel. A fehérterror kutatásának másik fontos forráscsoportját a pesti izraelita hitközség
    által végzett anyaggyűjtés alkotja.45 Ezt az üldözött zsidóság támogatására felállított
    jogsegítő iroda munkatársai végezték el, az ügyvéd Dombóváry Géza vezetésével.46
    Ebben további 38 áldozat azonosítható név szerint.47 A két forráscsoport adatait összesítve
    azt látjuk, hogy körülbelül 400 fő esetében dokumentálható, hogy az elkövetők a
    Nemzeti Hadsereg kötelékébe tartoztak”

  13. An interesting read: « Cécile Tormay: A Gentlewoman Fascist in the Graveyard of the Hunchbacks » by Gwen Jones (UCL).

    During the debates about the numerus clausus law, Tormay advocated women’s right to higher education… while at the same time supporting the exclusion of jewish citizens. This reminded me of civil rights being a whole: you can indeed choose to be an activist for just one cause, but should you do it at the expense of the others, you’ve betrayed the whole thing.

    Eva S. Balogh:Her support of the Horthy regime yielded numerous benefits. In 1935 after the death of Marie Curie, Hungary delegated her to one of the committees of the League of Nations.

    The Mussolini connection may have played a part in that. Gwen Jones mentions she was sponsored by then France’s FM, Pierre Laval. France’s post-WWI stance towards Hungary wasn’t friendly, however in 1935 Laval was undoubtedly in very good terms with the Duce.

    Supporting Tormay for Curie’s seat (however surrealist it may seem today) may have been a small part of Laval’s moves to appease the crisis born with the assassination of Alexander of Yugoslavia and Laval’s own predecessor in Marseilles at the end of 1934, since both Hungary and Italy were suspected at the time to have at least arbored the perpetrators.

  14. Louis Kovach :Dr Balogh gives a reference for the Tappanch supposed “thousands” of victims of the white terror….however the reference has somewhat different numbers:.

    Your quote is wrong. These are footnotes, and #44 is quite clear :

    « 44. A történtek csak a nyolcvanas évektől váltak többé-kevésbé kutathatóvá.
    Manapság a történészek többsége többnyire ezer és kétezer fő közé teszi az áldozatok számát. Fényes 626 főt tudott összegyűjteni, de valószínűsítette, hogy körülbelül még egyszer ennyi, azaz nagyjából 1200 és 1300 közötti lehet az áldozatok száma. »

  15. Louis Kovach, you are really a dishonest man who quotes the passage that proves his point and leaves out the crucial sentence of the article:

    “A fehérterror egyik legfontosabb forrása a Magyar Szociáldemokrata Párt által 1919
    őszén felállított, a politikai foglyok védelmére létrehozott jogvédő iroda anyaggyűjtése.
    Az anyag később kiegészült Fényes László újságíró és volt kormánybiztos újabb adatgyűjtésével.
    Fényes 626 főt tudott összegyűjteni, de valószínűsítette, hogy körülbelül
    még egyszer ennyi, azaz nagyjából 1200 és 1300 közötti lehet az áldozatok száma.”

    In brief, in the fall of 1919 the Hungarian Social Democratic Party created an office that was supposed to give legal help to political prisoners. This office began gathering the names of the victims. This material was supplemented by László Fényes’s research who managed to collect 626 names but thought it probable that the actual number was somewhere between 1,200 and 1,300.

    The sentence you quoted follows the above. Shame on you!

    Tappanch’s main point was that there were more victims of the White Terror than those of the Red.And indeed this is the case according to the author of the article.

    At the beginning of 1920 the government began collecting names of the victims and the final result was 587.” But “Az áldozatok száma azonban mindenképpen túlzó, Váry adatgyűjtését számos helyen pontosítani szükséges,” that is, the numbers are exaggerated. And he goes into details why this was the case.

  16. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    Louis Kovach :Dr Balogh gives a reference for the Tappanch supposed “thousands” of victims of the white terror….however the reference has somewhat different numbers:.

    Your quote is wrong. These are footnotes, and #44 is quite clear :

    « 44. A történtek csak a nyolcvanas évektől váltak többé-kevésbé kutathatóvá.
    Manapság a történészek többsége többnyire ezer és kétezer fő közé teszi az áldozatok számát. Fényes 626 főt tudott összegyűjteni, de valószínűsítette, hogy körülbelül még egyszer ennyi, azaz nagyjából 1200 és 1300 közötti lehet az áldozatok száma. »

    You are too kind to Kovach. He is not wrong. He is purposely trying to mislead the readers and distort the conclusion of the article. Indirectly he wants to discredit Tappanch and me. Nice guy

  17. The best thing about trolls like Louis K is that they are so easily shown to be loonie liars – like my favourite Fidesz troll on pol.hu …

    Are these guys really that stupid or just trying to find anything against what’s written here ?

    Thank you again, Eva and the others for restoring my faith into Hungary and its people!

  18. It is very important to point out that most of us on this blog do not condone the crimes committed by communists or their sympathizers. We also condone the terror and crimes committed by others. THis would simply be a non issue and common sense, except in today’s Hungary the right (and this is where Fidesz belongs to) gained popularity, not by improving conditions (economical, social, health, education), but running and investing in programs that divide the already frazzled Hungarian society even further.

    Fidesz’ main platform to gain votes is simple: It is all someone else’s fault. That someone else is anyone who is not their supporter. If you do not support their ideas and programs you would be put into the enemy group. AT this time the enemy for Fidesz are the communists, and they will put everyone in that category without any truth. THey also need heroes, and those heroes are picked from the past, not based on their achievements, but for their history and record regarding their disposition against the communists. “communist” is also a “code” for “jews” in Hungary, as there were a number of jews who became member of various communists movements as it promised them and their families a future without segregation, prosecution, a future of equality.

    When people like Tormay, Albert Wass, Jozsef Nyiro, Miklos Horthy receives a cult status from today’s Hungary, what they celebration is their hate for the “communists”. THeir support for other crimes (like the WHite Terror) is undermined. According to Fidesz’ point of view: If you have a problem with the crimes supported or committed by those who were not communists you are a communist. THe fallacy being created by Fidesz followed blindly (as this blog proves) by a number of educated individuals w/o to many doubt.

    Fidesz “executives” (and many of their followers) at the same time experience their own “Fight Club syndrome”, a kind of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder), as themselves were members and/or supporters of various communists organizations and/or associations.
    Just like in American Beauty (I know I mentioned this before), the most adamant, and aggressive believers are those who themselves are guilty of the “crime”.

  19. Louis Kovach :So far I have not read ANY factual proof from either Dr Balogh or Marcel D that proves the number of victims they claim…..As seargent Friday said “Just the facts ma’am, just the facts..”

    I didn’t claim anything on the matter. Our host linked to a source, which you failed to quote correctly (either by not being able to understand the simple structure of the document, or intentionally, I’ll let you choose).

    Moreover, while I find the order of magnitude of such events important (compared with the size of a general or specific population, it helps to understand how deep a society can be impacted), I do believe that such macabre numeric contests are pointless, especially in this case as we can assume that both the Red and White terrors resulted in rather low direct casualties compared with other European civil wars of the period (Finland, Spain etc.).

    However from a qualitative point of view the Hungarian White Terror presents two characteristics I deem important: its antisemitic traits, and the influence the actions of violent paramilitary groups would have on the political conceptions of the Hungarian bourgeoisie and aristocracy – ie, a pre-fascist impregnation – in the interwar years.

  20. Marcel De : “I didn’t claim anything on the matter. Our host linked to a source, which you failed to quote correctly (either by not being able to understand the simple structure of the document, or intentionally, I’ll let you choose).”

    I have quoted that section (as it was written!) because it was the only evaluated number and not the guessing and innuendo numbers, bandied around by Tappanch and also Dr Balogh.

    Yes, a part of the White Terror was antisemitic. But consider the disproportinately large percentage of Jewish Hungarians who initiated, led and conducted the Red Terror preceding it .

  21. some1 ““communist” is also a “code” for “jews” in Hungary, as there were a number of jews who became member of various communists movements as it promised them and their families a future without segregation, prosecution, a future of equality”

    Do you think that Kun, Szamuelly, Rakosi, Gero, Farkas, Lukacs and most of the communist leaders of the past century in Hungary joined those movements for “equality” or “to fight discrimination” ???

    I think you are mistaken. I recommend to you to look at their biographies

  22. Louis, it is obvious that you are an antisemite, racist and fan of “Greater Hungary” – why don’t you just say so, instead of coming up with “explanations” for all the horror that happened in Hungary and elsewhere ? Nobody here claims that the Bolsheviks were saints but your kindergarden logic is absurd: The Communists did it too, so our terror wasn’t so bad/justified/whatever …

    You should know (and it’s been written about here …) that Hungary (just like Austria, germany and most or all other “Christian” countries) has a strong antisemitic tradition before the 20 century, so you’re not alone there …

    And now for what I really meant to say:

    Just f*ck off and don’t bother anybody with your idiocies – there are places like kuruc or Hungarian ambiance where you might be welcomed with open arms!

  23. Louis Kovach :
    Yes, a part of the White Terror was antisemitic. But consider the disproportinately large percentage of Jewish Hungarians who initiated, led and conducted the Red Terror preceding it .

    Okay, let me get this straight: You’re saying it’s okay to kill patriotic Hungarian citizens. It’s okay simply because people who share their religion supported the Communists. I consider your statement “part of the White Terror was antisemitic” an offhand justification to murder Hungarian citizens.

    Kossuth would have no patience for your attitudes.

  24. Louis Kovach :Yes, a part of the White Terror was antisemitic. But consider the disproportinately large percentage of Jewish Hungarians who initiated, led and conducted the Red Terror preceding it .

    You’re the victim of a dangerous optical illusion. Communism in Hungary at the times of WWI was absolutely not a mass movement, neither within the global Hungarian population nor within the Hungarian Jewish population, hence blaming “the Jews” for the Soviet Republic was, and still is, sophism.

    Surely the predominance of Hungarian Jewish citizens among the leaders of the Soviet Republic is undisputed, as well as their large proportions in neighbouring Polish and Romanian communist movements (though other minorities were also strongly present: Ukrainians and Belarussians in Poland, and… Hungarians in Romania).

    There have been many attempts to explain this, to mention a few factors:

    – a generational reaction to what they saw as the failure of their fathers’ assimilationist behavior (most were sons of the urban bourgeoisie or of the landowners’ management), especially as political antisemitism had risen, not declined, in Hungary since 1875;

    – a longing for loosing their own “jewishness”, rejecting both the young Zionist movements and the religious traditions, both neolog and orthodox – which makes antisemitism all the more absurd;

    – the appeal of an ideology claiming both justice and universality has also been mentioned, as if this was a fundamental, immanent aspect of Jewish culture, which I find rather tricky both as a Frenchman (we’ve been suspected of that, too, and have amply proven we were often not up to the ideals) and a History reader not believing in any kind of immanence when it comes to culture;

    – the topical “minority card” played heavily by the Russian communists (most were trained in Moscow) in Russia itself and throughout Central Europe, which was an edgy strategy as antisemitic tensions to say the least were frequent in the Red Army… and even among Hungarian communists.

    In a nutshell, the sociological and political factors appear multiple and complex. There was no need, then and now, to ‘essentialize’ the matter. The Hungarian Jewish youth as well as the whole Hungarian society experienced such fast and tremendous changes during the XIXth century that blaming a whole community, then and now, for the nefarious radicalization of a handful is absurd and dangerous. And nothing to name a street after.

    PS: both communism and fascism are the products of European modernity. If you want to go back to a pastoral life, go buy an island. Otherwise, you’d better stop wasting time in scapegoating and deal with it.

  25. Gardonista: “Okay, let me get this straight: You’re saying it’s okay to kill patriotic Hungarian citizens. It’s okay simply because people who share their religion supported the Communists. I consider your statement “part of the White Terror was antisemitic” an offhand justification to murder Hungarian citizens.”

    No it was not a justification. Do you have data on what percentage were Jewish among those killed by the White Terror? Do you have data on what percentage of Jewish Hungarians were in leading positions during the Red Terror both in Budapest and in major cities? What was the percentage of those Jewish citizens who were killed who were not involved with the Red Terror?

  26. Marcel De : “You’re the victim of a dangerous optical illusion. Communism in Hungary at the times of WWI was absolutely not a mass movement, neither within the global Hungarian population nor within the Hungarian Jewish population, hence blaming “the Jews” for the Soviet Republic was, and still is, sophism.”
    I have not stated that any of those statements are not true. But they being true does not eliminate the validity of the fact that an overwhelming majority of the 1919 communist leadership, activist and murderers were Jewish.

    Then you analyze the possiblel reasons for the younger Jewish genreation turning toward communism,. In my opinion, all of the factors you have cited participated in their decision. Does that justify their behavior?

    One can elucidate the multiple reasons why many in the Hungarian working class turned to the Arrow Cross party, but that again does not justify their behavior.

  27. Louis Kovach :

    No it was not a justification. Do you have data on what percentage were Jewish among those killed by the White Terror? Do you have data on what percentage of Jewish Hungarians were in leading positions during the Red Terror both in Budapest and in major cities? What was the percentage of those Jewish citizens who were killed who were not involved with the Red Terror?

    Now Louis I don’t have that data and will be grateful when you produce them.
    However, since you are at it anyway, would you please look up and publish the number of Jewish victims of the commune too?
    Because, you see, the commune and its terror had nothing to do with religion, or race, no matter how often will you claim that. It is wrong and it is a lie. The Red Terror was class based and Jewish business men were amongst its victims just as well as wealthy peasants and local officials.
    The murderers of the White Terror, on the other hand, were working strictly on racial grounds, (amongst the victims at Orgovany wasn’t one single one that wasn’t a Jew), despite the fact that the first and most dedicated supporters of Horthy in Szeged were Jewish business man putting their money into the arming of the White terrorist squads.
    But no matter how bad the Red Terror was, it is no excuse, nor exoneration for the White Terror. In What way would the White be better as you claim it is, than the Red, as long as they both did the same: killing innocent people?
    Your silly questions are patently tendentious and if you supply your own answers, you will see that staying silent would have served you better.
    And besides, do your own home work before asking stupid, tendentious questions from the bottom of your ignorance.

  28. Sandor: “Now Louis I don’t have that data and will be grateful when you produce them.
    However, since you are at it anyway, would you please look up and publish the number of Jewish victims of the commune too?
    Because, you see, the commune and its terror had nothing to do with religion, or race, no matter how often will you claim that. It is wrong and it is a lie. The Red Terror was class based and Jewish business men were amongst its victims just as well as wealthy peasants and local officials.”

    1) The best I can do is that out of the verifiable ~590 victims of the Red Terror there were ~20 Jewish people. (About 3,3%)

    2) While there are folks who claim that Vary’s list is not complete, it lists the occupation and in some cases the education of the victims. Most of them were peasants and many were landless laborers the rest were army folks, municipal and county officals, etc,.So your economic argument is rather lame.

    3) Innocence is in the eye of the beholder and it is not always judged equally.

    4) Among the top leadership of the Commune (Kormanyzo tanacs and nepbiztosok) out of
    the 46 total members 31 were Jewish (67 %), 9 Roman Catholic, 3 Evangelical Reformed, 2 Gr. Catholic and 1 unitarian.

  29. Sandor: “The murderers of the White Terror, on the other hand, were working strictly on racial grounds, (amongst the victims at Orgovany wasn’t one single one that wasn’t a Jew), despite the fact that the first and most dedicated supporters of Horthy in Szeged were Jewish business man putting their money into the arming of the White terrorist squads.”

    You are dreaming up numbers, as an example, at Orgovany from 36 victims taken from jail to be murdered only 6 were Jewish. Why exaggerate the numbers, when anyone can check them up and find you wrong. Even HVG, which is a leftist publication would have informed you better.

    http://hvg.hu/tudomany/20110208_orgovanyi_gyilkossag_hattere

    although even that article did not discuss that it was a consequence of the local commune’s treatment of Hejasi’s father and relatives.

  30. Louis Kovach :
    Sandor: “The murderers of the White Terror, on the other hand, were working strictly on racial grounds, (amongst the victims at Orgovany wasn’t one single one that wasn’t a Jew), despite the fact that the first and most dedicated supporters of Horthy in Szeged were Jewish business man putting their money into the arming of the White terrorist squads.”
    You are dreaming up numbers, as an example, at Orgovany from 36 victims taken from jail to be murdered only 6 were Jewish. Why exaggerate the numbers, when anyone can check them up and find you wrong. Even HVG, which is a leftist publication would have informed you better.
    http://hvg.hu/tudomany/20110208_orgovanyi_gyilkossag_hattere
    although even that article did not discuss that it was a consequence of the local commune’s treatment of Hejasi’s father and relatives.

    WHy not to tell the truth Louis? Why only quote what you like, why not to tell the whole story? 36 was from the jail, but this was only a chapter from the whole event. “For example from the Kecskemet-Budapest train they dragged of not the communists, but the rich looking jews.”
    I guess the best you could do would required some honesty too.
    Regards.

  31. Some1: “WHy not to tell the truth Louis? Why only quote what you like, why not to tell the whole story? 36 was from the jail, but this was only a chapter from the whole event. “For example from the Kecskemet-Budapest train they dragged of not the communists, but the rich looking jews.”
    I guess the best you could do would required some honesty too.
    Regards”

    That is only from a supposed statement during a post 1956 trial of Francia Kiss. I am not saying it did not occur, but that was another occasion. The removal of the directorium from jail and their murder is a proven fact. BTW, there was a trial of the murderers later if you want to look for additional info.

    Neither does the above justify Sandor’s lie that all victims were Jewiish.

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