Coming to an understanding with Viktor Orbán and his followers?

Yesterday’s post didn’t excite too many people. But how can one compete with Trianon? Who cares about the LIBE Commission’s report and the 500 some proposed “amendments,” mostly from Fidesz MPs and their Hungarian friends from Slovakia and Romania? On top of it all some people didn’t even get the details although I gave a link to the amendments that are available on the Internet.

But isn’t it the case that these amendments are a hundred times more relevant to the fate of the Hungarian people than absolutely useless discussions of a treaty, however just or unjust it was, that cannot be altered? Revisionism was the cornerstone of Hungary’s interwar foreign policy and some people were convinced, as was John F. Montgomery, U.S. ambassador in Budapest in the 1930s, that “the Hungarian people were not quite sane on that subject.” Well, it seems that some Hungarians are returning to the very same insanity that led Hungary nowhere except to another lost war, the loss of millions of its people, and a series of absolutely tragic events. But there are always people who are incapable of learning from past mistakes. Just like the Bourbons.

So, discussing Trianon endlessly and crying over Hungary’s misfortunes are dead ends. The Venice Commission’s opinion and the LIBE Commission recommendations, on the other hand, are of the utmost importance. The outcome of the investigations of the Hungarian government’s reshaping of Hungarian democracy into an authoritarian or even worse regime affects the very future of Hungarian democracy.

Let’s talk a little bit about the fate of Hungarian democracy. Some people are convinced that true democracy no longer exists in Hungary due to Viktor Orbán’s “renewal” of the country. I know that a lot of the readers of Hungarian Spectrum are certain that Viktor Orbán and his ilk will be running Hungary for the next twenty years. They are certain that Fidesz is unbeatable because the party communicates better, because all the state institutions are in party hands, and because the new electoral system is designed to keep them in power. By contrast, the opposition is fractured and lacks a charismatic leader. So why bother to do anything?

This defeatist attitude may be misplaced, especially since almost half of the electorate at the moment either doesn’t know or doesn’t divulge its political preferences. The various social groups that have been injured in one way or the other by the “renewal” measures of the Orbán government are numerous: civil servants, teachers, doctors, judges, university professors, artists, writers, and people receiving the minimum wage. One could go on and on. At the moment all these people are shaking in their boots, fearing for their jobs. They are afraid to go out to demonstrate. Surely, hidden cameras will reveal their identity. Fear has returned to the country.

But there might be a tipping point when all the grievances converge and serious opposition to the government breaks out. Who could have said on October 21, 1956 that in two days there would be an open rebellion against the Rákosi regime in Budapest? Or two weeks ago who would have thought that there would be street fights between young Turks and the police? Most likely nothing that drastic will happen in Hungary, but the possibility of a broad common front cannot be ruled out. Therefore, the opposition must be ready for such an occurrence. Moreover, the democratic parties have to come to some kind of an agreement concerning their attitudes toward “the accomplishments” of the Orbán government. Of course, I’m using the word “accomplishments” ironically.

What I mean is: can there be some kind of compromise between Fidesz and its democratic opposition? Because if not, says one school of thought on the subject, the present political division will only be perpetuated. Others are convinced that there is no way any kind of compromise is possible: Orbán’s autocratic rule cannot be “balanced” by those who believe in liberal democracy. Oil and water don’t mix.

Let me go back a bit to history and linguistics. I use the word “compromise” for “kiegyezés.” Indeed, when we talk about the historical “kiegyezés” of 1867 between Austria and Hungary in English we use the word “compromise.” The Compromise of 1867. However, the German word for the same event is “Ausgleich,” which means not so much compromise as “settlement.” Austria and Hungary settled their differences. So, according to a number of politicians, including Gordon Bajnai, the opposition must sit down with the politicians of Fidesz and settle their differences.

A settlement in the offing? / calgaryfoodpolicy.blogspot.com

A settlement in the offing? 

Bajnai, in an interview with Die Zeitenvisages an electoral outcome in 2014 in which the united opposition achieves a modest victory which “would be an opportunity for a kind of national agreement for fair negotiations.” He wants “to cross party lines to reach a consensus” and has no intention of turning everything back to the pre-Orbán period. After watching Viktor Orbán up close and personal ever since 1998, I would like to see just one occasion when he was ready to come to a “national agreement.” We all remember when in 2002 Péter Medgyessy, then apparently on the advice of Ferenc Gyurcsány, tried to extend a hand to Viktor Orbán. He called this approach “filling the trenches” or “burying the hatchet” in English. He got nowhere. He was only rebuffed.

The latest attempt at “appeasement” (at least this is what I call it) on the part of Gordon Bajnai is asking for forgiveness for the referendum of 2004 when the Fidesz-supported idea of giving citizenship to Hungarian nationals living in the neighboring countries was rejected with the active support of the government parties. Since then the Orbán government’s super-majority voted for citizenship, which includes voting rights. Bajnai feels that this right cannot be revoked. Thus, the citizens of Hungary must live with perhaps a million extra votes of people who have no real stake in the outcome of the election and don’t have to bear its consequences. That is a very large number when only about four million people vote at national elections.

Bajnai, in the hope of extra votes from the other side, is giving in on many other issues as well. For example, he made special mention of the Day of Unity (in other words, the anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Trianon) where he talked about three-fourths of the territories and two-thirds of its population Hungary lost. Of course, these numbers are correct, but failing to point out that the majority of this two-thirds were not Hungarians was a mistake. Talking about Trianon as a “tragedy” is again only adding oil to fire. He is hoping to come to an understanding on “the trauma of the Soviet occupation” and “the trauma of the Holocaust.” No wonder that the headline in HVG declared: “Bajnai compared Trianon to the Holocaust.” I don’t think that the loss of territories and the loss of lives can cause the same trauma. The last sentence of Bajnai’s communiqué stated that “we will have to close the period that meant the silence and abuse of Trianon.” That to me means that he promises the Hungarian nationalists that Trianon will remain a topic of debate. Keeping Trianon alive will also stoke the self-pity that is so injurious to the Hungarian psyche and that should be discouraged.

But that’s not all. Gordon Bajnai said the following about anti-Semitism and the Orbán government in Berlin the other day. “There are many problems with the government but one cannot claim that it has anything to do with antisemitism and racism.” One doesn’t have to go that far in seeking “national consensus” or “settlement” with Viktor Orbán and his followers. After all, Orbán’s attitude towards both is far from unequivocal.

That is the Bajnai approach, which in my opinion is utterly mistaken. Devoted Orbán followers will not vote for the democratic opposition because Bajnai supports the voting rights of Hungarians in the neighboring countries. It is also unlikely that a devoted supporter of Fidesz will be terribly impressed with  all that mea culpa on the issue of Trianon. But the voters of the democratic opposition may lose trust in him.

In the next few days I will outline some other ideas about what the opposition should do concerning the Orbán government and its supporters.

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97 comments

  1. Punnyadok :
    When was Obama successful with his appeasement/reaching out politics towards the Republican party? Or the Hungarian left’s? Was Gyula Horn’s Vatican treaty (to finance Catholic institutions from taxpayers money) reciprocated or that he bailed out Magyar Nemzet to held the right wing media?
    Bajnai is mistaken, he and the people around him (his advisors are mostly Buda-side ‘enlightened’ burgeois people) are the quintessential weak left-wing politicians who always give in to the right, who lack leadership and, most importantly, vision.
    They will get nowhere with Fidesz.
    If Fidesz has learnt anything, it is exactly that being aggressive and ruthless always pays off: they triumphed over the EU, the IMF, killed the Hungarian left, are killing the Romanian RMDSZ (the Secler nationalists supported by Fidesz are ascending) and so on.
    Fidesz tamed the media without much fight, they took advantage of the foreign investors who accepted the nationalisations, extra taxes, onerous regulations without a peep (in fact many investors are now going to the government to offer their energy assets like GDF-Suez etc.).
    Why would be in Fidesz’ interest to have any kind of compromise with Bajnai or MSZP? Although to be honest, Fidesz could force these lefty guys into a compromise which would be a fantastic victory for the Hungarian right, I am pretty sure, Bajnai and MSZP would enter into any deal as is their wont.
    Bajnai and the left want to have the self-image that they are open, flexible and generous, so European. The problem is that they are giving up everything in terms of policy and constitutional values (if they had any).
    But being weak, indecisive, visionless, anti-charismatic are the defining characteristics of the current Hungarian (or global) left.

    Hopefully you’re wrong about Bajnai, but I guess we’ll see. It’s possible that Bajnai has no intention of actually cooperating or compromising with Fidesz, and he is only reaching out to those voters who are in the middle or on the fence, unhappy with the left and right.

    Obama is a great example – he won twice, despite economic numbers that historically have sunk almost every incumbent, because he appears to be a centrist who is willing to work with almost anyone to improve the country, yet he manages to get his “base” voters out, as well. That’s the magic formula in Hungary, too, since nobody can win without attracting at least some of the voters who chose Fidesz last time.

  2. Googly:

    in Hungary – in the current constitutional setup – you simply cannot govern if you are unable to amend the constitution, and to amend it fundamentally. Simple as that.

    I would be surprised if he would be prime minister even if the left won narrowly (which I find unlikely and a narow win would be bad, Orbán would come back in two years). MSZP is stronger, Mesterházy is rather agressive in this, and the leftist voters in a first past the post system will tend to vote for MSZP anyway (as any other vote would be tantamount to a vote for Fidesz)

    I happen to know Bajnai (although not too well, but well enough for these purposes) and his group of advisers: they are happy to compromise. They have no secret agenda, no master plan (unlike Fidesz which had prepared constitutions and judicial laws etc.). They love the EU and fancy themsleves as open, modern, generous people. Not tough guys, exactly the stereotypical weak lefties. Sorry. No big secrets here.

    They mix their constituencies. They think (I guess subconsciously hope) that the EU (who love them) will vote for them. No, it will be the Hódmezővásárhely and Mezőtúr and Tamási voters who love that Fidesz finally stands up against the energy companies and foreign banks.

    As to Obama, he won the reelection and he was able to have an extremely watered down Obamacare approved, but other than that? I guess the jury is way out on what he actually accomplished policywise (if anythig, I certainly don’t see too much).

  3. tappanch :
    Chief Prosecutors on the tobacco license scandal:
    we do not have the right to investigate the decision of a minister…
    [This is a nonsense. They mean they do not have the will to investigate]
    http://nol.hu/belfold/trafikmutyi__nincs_jogorvoslat

    I will translate the just of it: THe Chief Prosecutors feel that any decision made by Orban and his friends cannot be attacked if they want to keep their jobs. The people who were qualified to get the shops but did not, and now are trying to litigate are out of luck.
    What the Chief Prosecutors forgot to mention is that the people did not have a problem with the law, what they had problem with is the process and how those who were privileged, thanks to their connection were able to put their hands on these contacts (for example with no experience whatsoever).
    I wonder what our position will be next year on the 2013 Corruption Perception Index after the land lease and the tobacco scandal.
    Hungary was ranked no. 46 in the world for transparency in 2012 from 174 countries. It earned 55 points out of 100. We are behind South Korea and Brunei, and just ahead of Costa Rica, Lithuania and Rwanda.

  4. Some1 :

    tappanch :
    Chief Prosecutors on the tobacco license scandal:
    we do not have the right to investigate the decision of a minister…
    [This is a nonsense. They mean they do not have the will to investigate]
    http://nol.hu/belfold/trafikmutyi__nincs_jogorvoslat

    I will translate the just of it: THe Chief Prosecutors feel that any decision made by Orban and his friends cannot be attacked if they want to keep their jobs. The people who were qualified to get the shops but did not, and now are trying to litigate are out of luck.
    What the Chief Prosecutors forgot to mention is that the people did not have a problem with the law, what they had problem with is the process and how those who were privileged, thanks to their connection were able to put their hands on these contacts (for example with no experience whatsoever).

    To begin with, why would the chief prosecutor assume that he is called up to investigate a ministerial decision? Does he already know without investigating?
    In a fair and democratic system he should have investigated first and then, perhaps, excuse himself. It also looks as an open admission that the decision came from the minister, whereas it was supposed to be coming from a jury of the bids.
    No matterr how you slice it, it stinks and there is no way to remove the obvious corruption from this highway robbery.

  5. @NWO

    “…of the manifold faults of Orban and FIDESZ-overt anti-semitism is not one of them.”

    Oy vay, tzurelay! How people fall for the Felcsutian’s slip-sliding ways…

    It is support for anti-semitism when you raise the Horthy cult;

    It is support of anti-semitism when you direct powerless judicial decisions to allow the Garda to do things which are seemingly outlawed;

    It is support of anti-semitism when you allow your moronic (non-speaker) of the Parliament not to step in and stop anti-semitic slander in Parliament.

    Nothing happens now in Hungary without the little Felcsutian Napoleon wanting it to…

    Must we hang the Orban by his own words? “Watch
    what I do, not what I say.” And that certainly goes for his pro-jewish mumbo jumbo that he mouthed at the WJC meeting.

    No doubt, the Felcsutians gathered over an open wire, firing up some poor, yapping, animal or other, and laughed to their hearts’ content.

  6. OT: It became costumery in Hungarian political circles, not only to covertly or openly point fingers at jews, and gypsies, but to use every degrading and covert variations to point out homosexuals. It is a trend that smiled upon and encouraged. It so well embedded in the DNA of the Fidesz government now that not only Imre Kerenyi, “the prime minister’s commissioner, who is responsible for laying the foundations of national public conscious thinking, and related performing tasks by preserving and developing cultural values” was able to call out to ask for a “non-faggot” renewal of the current National Theatre from the new director Vidnyanszky (versus the previous director, who was openly gay), but Lajos Kosa, the mayor of Debrecen made a “funny” comment about gays again. Either comments received any feedback from Fidesz so far. (I guess they treating this as private opinion.) So, what did Kosa had to say? He said that Debrecen will wait for Vidnyanszky with open arms if in that “warm” Budapest things do not work out. You must know that Hungarians refer to gay people as being “warm”.
    There is actually a great opinion piece about this on FN24 http://fn.hir24.hu/poszt-itt-parti-nagy-lajos/2013/06/06/parti-nagy-(buzi-e-a-helyzet-)/

  7. Petofi: I agree with you that Orban is more than comfortable to flirt with anti-Semitic elements in the population. He is a populist, after all, and will do and say what ever is easiest in front of whatever audience he is addressing. Go and speak to Chabad, If they need something from the Government, they get heard out and can generally are supported. BTW, also ask the Israelis. There is no love of Orban, but relations with Israel are good (far better than in the 98-2002 period). Does FIDESZ (or Chabad) advertise this? Of course, not. Anyway, I do not condone Orban’s willingness to use his surrogates to play around the edges of anti-Semitism. In fact, it is odious (especially the changes to the National Education curriculum). My point is only that I believe what he does is more populist than true antisemitism. There are probably others in Fidesz (Kover for example) who I can imagine believe this garbage really. Also, as Fellegi even admitted FIDESZ has failed (to be kind) in being sufficiently public in pushing back against other openly anti-Semitic elements within the political sphere. The bottom line (and I think Gordon’s point) is that this is not the right ground on which to fight Orban. Not only because it is not a huge vote getter, BUT Because He has committed FAR BIGGER SINS: Starting first and foremost with using a democratic election to fundamentally undermine liberal and democratic principles. He has also (without knowing it) set back the growth potential and Hungary’s economic competitiveness by years, notwithstanding the small blip in GDP this past quarter, and he has moved Hungary closer to a gangster country where corruption infects everything. So in the end, those of us who desire change in the worst way should focus on the greater sins, while remaining sensitive and concerned greatly by the overall increase in not only anti-semitism but all racism in the country.

  8. @NWO

    Eminently well thought out rejoinder. I agree with what you write, especially on the point that anti-semitism will not fire up the imagination of the un-committed (which, by the way, is probably a lot lesser number than reported…people just don’t trust putting out that information without having repercussions in the future.)

    Sadly, my memory does not serve me well and I don’t remember John Kennedy stooping to assuage his message to southerners during the 1960’s election campaign. I think Bajnai should say what he believes and not cater to the Trianon whiners. He should be drawing clear lines of differentiation between him and Orban not smudge the borders. If you bring your position close to Orban’s the simple, country voters will always vote for the man in power because gifts and favors will fall from him; and disfavor has an awful price in the Hungarian reality.

  9. Jano: “Why is it that all our national symbols are monopolized by the right wing?”

    I thought this is the case because there are few political ideas attached to it that could be considered “liberal” or “democratic” in the sense of a strong emphasis on political equality of citizens. “Liberal” means “foreign” – I learned here on the blog, “Hungarian” stands for tradition, unity (homogeneity) and the ability to survive as a nation on one’s own. I have no doubts that even with the complicated Hungarian past, it would not be too difficult to define a modern Hungarian political programme, but for that (again) you need first an acceptance of diversity and equality. I would like to know what you think.

  10. Sandor :

    leaveyourcommenthere :

    Sandor :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    The problem with this blog is, that You have a strong preconception towards this region (the revival of nationalism + antisemitism due to Orbán and Hungary.) and You only pick up sources which prove Your point. Absolutely no empathy, will to understand the thinking of the opposite side from the inside. Why don’t You write an article on the minority rights of the Hungarians in Slovakia for example? Jewish renessaince in Hungary? You don’t want to explain or understand the politics of Mr. Orbán – this, revival of nationalism, etc issues explains nothing. What would You do here as a politician? Or at least why don’t You come home and give lectures here at the universities?

    No, my dear leavyour…, the problem of this blog is that you have the audacity to come back here again with your unbelievably primitive, left-handed lies, idiocies and ignorance when exactly the very same bilge was roundly rejected just a day ago. To say nothing of your pompous, pious, holier than thou manner that makes me puke.
    You look, taste and read like a mouthpiece for the Christian Democratic party of Tömjén Zsolt: a disgusting hypocrite and an ignoramus, just in case you would not be sure what I mean.
    Get the hell out of my face, while I am this nice to you

    Mint minden kezdet, ez is nehéz volt, de manapság már 400-500 olvasója van a Hungarian Spectrum-nak. Amire igazán büszke vagyok az a kommentek magas színvonala és az a stílus, amely jellemzi őket. A magyar internetes hozzászólok tanulhatnának belőlük.

    No thanks to you, if that should be the case. But it is not.
    In fact, if that were the case it is despite your, and your ilk’s, incredibly transparent, sweaty effort to scuttle it.
    By the way, that you lie is obvious again, in as much as the readership of this blog is in excess of 60,000 monthly according to my latest information that is several months old. It is also rising steadily.
    Well, my dear leaveyourcommenthere, if I had my druthers, you would soon leave not your comment, but your pelt here. And not a minute too soon!

    I hope that You understand the logic of the politics now and why this blog went wrong. You and Eva’s friends have strong conviction that You are right, and only those are right who share Your point of view. From this perspective everything looks stupid etc made by Mr. Orbán. Since – according to You – You are right, this makes anything legal against the opposite side: verbal insult at first, physical assault next while blaming the other for Your acts (it is “thanks to You” – You wrote) but which is the most important: distortion in the perception:
    “You lie” You wrote – the quotation serves only one purpose: by means of contrasting her point of view with the actual behaviour of Yours and other’s I tried to show that You can be rude/ produce the behaviour You dislike in Orbán and his followers. It was not the number which matters. That was in the original sentence. That was my point. But You, instead of clarifying thing (“What do You mean Ma’am when You said this or that?”) take this personally and attacked me. No will, no intention to understand what I tried to say, just libelling and taking revenge for some trauma in the past. And finally: You don’t understand Fidesz followers,while You don’t really want to understand them, just spitting at them.

    Which sentence of mine was offensive to You or to anyone and why? I am ready to apologize.

    That I am on the opposite side it is no excuse for Your language. The quotation can not be my lie – it is from Eva S Balogh.

  11. Re ” The quotation can not be my lie – it is from Eva S Balogh.” Oh, yes they are mine. Written in 2009. It was true then. It is not true today. I assume you can comprehend this. Not too difficult.

  12. “I hope that You understand the logic of the politics now and why this blog went wrong. You and Eva’s friends have strong conviction that You are right, and only those are right who share Your point of view”

    You don’t like me that’s why you don’t think I’m right. Ergo I AM RIGHT.

    Come back after you graduated form kindergarten.

  13. Kirsten:

    Kirsten :
    “Liberal” means “foreign” – I learned here on the blog, “Hungarian” stands for tradition, unity (homogeneity) and the ability to survive as a nation on one’s own. I have no doubts that even with the complicated Hungarian past, it would not be too difficult to define a modern Hungarian political programme, but for that (again) you need first an acceptance of diversity and equality. I would like to know what you think.

    I don’t think it would be hard either but what I am saying that it was so easy for the right to force through their definition of “Hungarian” (the one you mentioned) as there was nothing to match it. The left’s attitude to national symbols has always been confusing and ambiguous. They try to avoid the topic – as it is shaky grounds for them – and when they can’t, it’s a disaster. We need a coherent train of thoughts on what it means to be patriotic while accepting equality and diversity at the same time. This has to be independent of what the right is doing, i.e. we have to start using certain symbols even if they have a not so appealing meaning in e.g. Jobbik circles. Believe me, they would freak out if they saw us taking their symbols away.

  14. googly :

    Punnyadok :
    When was Obama successful with his appeasement/reaching out politics towards the Republican party? Or the Hungarian left’s? Was Gyula Horn’s Vatican treaty (to finance Catholic institutions from taxpayers money) reciprocated or that he bailed out Magyar Nemzet to held the right wing media?
    Bajnai is mistaken, he and the people around him (his advisors are mostly Buda-side ‘enlightened’ burgeois people) are the quintessential weak left-wing politicians who always give in to the right, who lack leadership and, most importantly, vision.
    They will get nowhere with Fidesz.
    If Fidesz has learnt anything, it is exactly that being aggressive and ruthless always pays off: they triumphed over the EU, the IMF, killed the Hungarian left, are killing the Romanian RMDSZ (the Secler nationalists supported by Fidesz are ascending) and so on.
    Fidesz tamed the media without much fight, they took advantage of the foreign investors who accepted the nationalisations, extra taxes, onerous regulations without a peep (in fact many investors are now going to the government to offer their energy assets like GDF-Suez etc.).
    Why would be in Fidesz’ interest to have any kind of compromise with Bajnai or MSZP? Although to be honest, Fidesz could force these lefty guys into a compromise which would be a fantastic victory for the Hungarian right, I am pretty sure, Bajnai and MSZP would enter into any deal as is their wont.
    Bajnai and the left want to have the self-image that they are open, flexible and generous, so European. The problem is that they are giving up everything in terms of policy and constitutional values (if they had any).
    But being weak, indecisive, visionless, anti-charismatic are the defining characteristics of the current Hungarian (or global) left.

    Hopefully you’re wrong about Bajnai, but I guess we’ll see. It’s possible that Bajnai has no intention of actually cooperating or compromising with Fidesz, and he is only reaching out to those voters who are in the middle or on the fence, unhappy with the left and right.
    Obama is a great example – he won twice, despite economic numbers that historically have sunk almost every incumbent, because he appears to be a centrist who is willing to work with almost anyone to improve the country, yet he manages to get his “base” voters out, as well. That’s the magic formula in Hungary, too, since nobody can win without attracting at least some of the voters who chose Fidesz last time.

    Unfortunately Punnyadok quite right about his assessment, there is no way to negotiate with Orban’s Fidesz. Admittedly they understand only power and force, nothing else is there to speak of.

    Might is right – isn’t it?!

    Bajnai definitely making a mistake, – actually several mistakes in a rather naïve, even if honourable manner, – one of his biggest is to treat Orban and his cronies as civilised European statesmen, the other is trying to impress nationalist’s by giving in certain sensitive areas – in vain, as I see it. Those who chanting “Trianon” and singing under the apricot tree will never ever accept him, that’s for sure. Hoping to gain significant support this way to topple Orban nothing, but a dream.

    Since there is no real intention of unity among the Hungarian opposition, the only chance to dethrone these tyrants is a massive popular uprising and start from scratch with a totally new set of – hopefully – unspoiled politicians, but this only another dream, I’m afraid.

    In reality, you can not beat Orban without the Fidesz, -I mean, from inside of the very party – and this is very unlikely to happen anytime soon, he is too skilled in using the stick and carrot, and its working wonderfully.

    By the way, I hardly wait to see him spontaneously rescue a native Hungarian couple from Csíkszereda, having swept away by the flood this time, but along came Viktor and the Happy End: they sang together ever after under the apricot tree, where else…

  15. Eva S. Balogh :
    Re ” The quotation can not be my lie – it is from Eva S Balogh.” Oh, yes they are mine. Written in 2009. It was true then. It is not true today. I assume you can comprehend this. Not too difficult.

  16. pleaseleaveyourcommenthere :

    Eva S. Balogh :
    Re ” The quotation can not be my lie – it is from Eva S Balogh.” Oh, yes they are mine. Written in 2009. It was true then. It is not true today. I assume you can comprehend this. Not too difficult.

    How about answering the comment I made?

  17. Jano, thank you for the reply. The problem that I see is that Jobbik does have some idea (however unattractive for many) what they relate these symbols to, while many other people apparently lack such idea. So taking away from Jobbik the power to define the meaning of the symbols would indeed be very useful, but it will succeed only if an alternative meaning is being worked on and finally shared among a larger group of people as well.

  18. Mutt :
    “I hope that You understand the logic of the politics now and why this blog went wrong. You and Eva’s friends have strong conviction that You are right, and only those are right who share Your point of view”
    You don’t like me that’s why you don’t think I’m right. Ergo I AM RIGHT.
    Come back after you graduated form kindergarten.

    Sir, You made still no reflexion on what I wrote, just showed how much You hate me.
    Drop this strange obsession with kindergartens, this is getting stranger every time…

  19. Kirsten: That’s exactly my opinion as well. Sadly only a few see that something should be done on that front.

  20. Punnyadok :
    Googly:
    in Hungary – in the current constitutional setup – you simply cannot govern if you are unable to amend the constitution, and to amend it fundamentally. Simple as that.
    I would be surprised if he would be prime minister even if the left won narrowly (which I find unlikely and a narow win would be bad, Orbán would come back in two years). MSZP is stronger, Mesterházy is rather agressive in this, and the leftist voters in a first past the post system will tend to vote for MSZP anyway (as any other vote would be tantamount to a vote for Fidesz)
    I happen to know Bajnai (although not too well, but well enough for these purposes) and his group of advisers: they are happy to compromise. They have no secret agenda, no master plan (unlike Fidesz which had prepared constitutions and judicial laws etc.). They love the EU and fancy themsleves as open, modern, generous people. Not tough guys, exactly the stereotypical weak lefties. Sorry. No big secrets here.
    They mix their constituencies. They think (I guess subconsciously hope) that the EU (who love them) will vote for them. No, it will be the Hódmezővásárhely and Mezőtúr and Tamási voters who love that Fidesz finally stands up against the energy companies and foreign banks.
    As to Obama, he won the reelection and he was able to have an extremely watered down Obamacare approved, but other than that? I guess the jury is way out on what he actually accomplished policywise (if anythig, I certainly don’t see too much).

    I agree that any non-Fidesz government will be unable to function properly without a 2/3 majority, which is part of the reason why Orbán will insist on being prime minister of a government where Fidesz is in the minority. If there is a left-wing win in the next elections, but no party wins an outright majority of seats, then the option will most likely be either form a government with Fidesz or one with Jobbik (I’m betting that LMP will not get into Parliament). Fidesz will probably then be the only one to be able to form a government, since the left-wingers will probably never allow Jobbik into government, but Fidesz probably would. There will be the temptation to create a national unity government, but, as I wrote before, Orbán will not accept any arrangement where he is not in charge, so he would demand the prime minister position, if he is willing to agree to such a government in the first place. He has nothing to lose, since he can keep the government from properly functioning, and would be more effective for Fidesz from the opposition. That’s all I was trying to say.

    I agree with you that Bajnai is a decent person with no ulterior motives, which is why he is unfit for Hungarian (or most) politics. He should just leave the politics to others, and be available to serve as the technocrat he is. Unfortunately, he has probably chosen the wrong politicians to ally himself with, but we will see. In either case, I don’t see that his stated willingness to compromise goes against his public persona, and he doesn’t need to actually follow through when the time comes (if it ever does).

    As for Obama, I wasn’t talking about what he has accomplished, I was talking about his ability to get elected under historically difficult (to put it mildly) conditions, and chalking it up, in part, to his professed willingness to compromise and collaborate with his opposition. The fact that he actually made the effort, whether it was in good faith or not, probably was a big part of his electoral success, because he has successfully positioned himself in the center, where most elections are won. The right-wing tried to paint him as a radical leftist, but, for whatever reason, people either didn’t believe that caricature, or actually did believe it but wanted a radical leftist in the presidency. Knowing what I do about the U.S. electorate, I would say it was the former, but I don’t live there.

    In terms of accomplishments, Obama can claim far more accomplishments in his 4 years than the previous president in his 8 years. For the record:

    Number of unnecessary wars started: 0
    Number of losing wars started: 0
    Number of nearly-complete economic collapses: 0

    Sure, he’s not the best president ever, and he seems to have a knack for letting his government get out of control and cause him political harm, but every mistake he’s made is much, much smaller than just one of Bush’s mistakes, so sometimes you can win by not screwing up too badly.

  21. spectator :

    googly :

    Punnyadok :
    When was Obama successful with his appeasement/reaching out politics towards the Republican party? Or the Hungarian left’s? Was Gyula Horn’s Vatican treaty (to finance Catholic institutions from taxpayers money) reciprocated or that he bailed out Magyar Nemzet to held the right wing media?
    Bajnai is mistaken, he and the people around him (his advisors are mostly Buda-side ‘enlightened’ burgeois people) are the quintessential weak left-wing politicians who always give in to the right, who lack leadership and, most importantly, vision.
    They will get nowhere with Fidesz.
    If Fidesz has learnt anything, it is exactly that being aggressive and ruthless always pays off: they triumphed over the EU, the IMF, killed the Hungarian left, are killing the Romanian RMDSZ (the Secler nationalists supported by Fidesz are ascending) and so on.
    Fidesz tamed the media without much fight, they took advantage of the foreign investors who accepted the nationalisations, extra taxes, onerous regulations without a peep (in fact many investors are now going to the government to offer their energy assets like GDF-Suez etc.).
    Why would be in Fidesz’ interest to have any kind of compromise with Bajnai or MSZP? Although to be honest, Fidesz could force these lefty guys into a compromise which would be a fantastic victory for the Hungarian right, I am pretty sure, Bajnai and MSZP would enter into any deal as is their wont.
    Bajnai and the left want to have the self-image that they are open, flexible and generous, so European. The problem is that they are giving up everything in terms of policy and constitutional values (if they had any).
    But being weak, indecisive, visionless, anti-charismatic are the defining characteristics of the current Hungarian (or global) left.

    Hopefully you’re wrong about Bajnai, but I guess we’ll see. It’s possible that Bajnai has no intention of actually cooperating or compromising with Fidesz, and he is only reaching out to those voters who are in the middle or on the fence, unhappy with the left and right.
    Obama is a great example – he won twice, despite economic numbers that historically have sunk almost every incumbent, because he appears to be a centrist who is willing to work with almost anyone to improve the country, yet he manages to get his “base” voters out, as well. That’s the magic formula in Hungary, too, since nobody can win without attracting at least some of the voters who chose Fidesz last time.

    Unfortunately Punnyadok quite right about his assessment, there is no way to negotiate with Orban’s Fidesz. Admittedly they understand only power and force, nothing else is there to speak of.
    Might is right – isn’t it?!
    Bajnai definitely making a mistake, – actually several mistakes in a rather naïve, even if honourable manner, – one of his biggest is to treat Orban and his cronies as civilised European statesmen, the other is trying to impress nationalist’s by giving in certain sensitive areas – in vain, as I see it. Those who chanting “Trianon” and singing under the apricot tree will never ever accept him, that’s for sure. Hoping to gain significant support this way to topple Orban nothing, but a dream.
    Since there is no real intention of unity among the Hungarian opposition, the only chance to dethrone these tyrants is a massive popular uprising and start from scratch with a totally new set of – hopefully – unspoiled politicians, but this only another dream, I’m afraid.
    In reality, you can not beat Orban without the Fidesz, -I mean, from inside of the very party – and this is very unlikely to happen anytime soon, he is too skilled in using the stick and carrot, and its working wonderfully.
    By the way, I hardly wait to see him spontaneously rescue a native Hungarian couple from Csíkszereda, having swept away by the flood this time, but along came Viktor and the Happy End: they sang together ever after under the apricot tree, where else…

    All I can add to what I wrote before is that not everyone who voted for Fidesz last time around was a raving nationalist, as the polls attest. It’s only smart politics to appeal to the less-committed in the other camp, on the off chance that they will be comfortable enough to forget their shame at having voted badly last time and vote for someone who, in their eyes, is the lesser of two evils (Bajnai). Don’t forget, some people will vote for Fidesz again simply because they don’t want to admit that they screwed up/were fooled last time. Either that, or they will just not vote at all. A non-vote from a former Fidesz supporter is only half a vote against Fidesz – if they see a reasonable man with a reputation for not being too leftist, they might just give their whole vote in the service of the Republic (oh sorry, forgot that we are no longer a republic).

  22. To Leaveyour….:

    It is not a particular sentence that is objectionable in you. In fact, your sentences are fine. But it is the sinister lie you are suggesting in every one of your fine sentences. You are odious in all your fineness, No refutation is necessary, because the lie is not just in the sentence, but in the intention that cannot escape notice, no matter the sentence.
    You are an other little disciple of Mussolini, the well-spoken maniac, and murderer, who could quote the classics at will, while sending out the thugs to the streets. And you advocate the same spirit here in well crafted sentences, like your lord and master does, while robbing the country blind. This is what you call Fidesz politics and there is no sanctimonious moralizing, no well crafted sentence, and no linguistic duplicity that can mask that.
    Get out of my face you dirty fascist!

  23. leaveyourcommenthere :
    The problem with this blog is, that You have a strong preconception towards this region (the revival of nationalism + antisemitism due to Orbán and Hungary.) and You only pick up sources which prove Your point. Absolutely no empathy, will to understand the thinking of the opposite side from the inside. Why don’t You write an article on the minority rights of the Hungarians in Slovakia for example? Jewish renessaince in Hungary? You don’t want to explain or understand the politics of Mr. Orbán – this, revival of nationalism, etc issues explains nothing. What would You do here as a politician? Or at least why don’t You come home and give lectures here at the universities?

    Obviously you don’t get it, do you, that this is a blog, a private owned as such, expressing free opinions at will – however disturbing it may sound in Orbanistan, this is one of the sad facts you either live with, or you just go elsewhere demanding informations an debates to your liking – this isn’t the place, you see.

    A few more of the free opinions – this is all mine, for your information:
    – Unfortunately I do understand Orbán’s politics only too well, even worse, I understand the person as well, that’s why I have no an ounce empathy toward his miserable little ego, and yes, I can explain it, if you keep pretending not to know, what I talking about.
    – In my opinion, when one have understood the true nature of the plague, one don’t start negotiating with the pandemic disease, but taking all the necessary steps to stop it, starting with true information about the devastating effects to come.

  24. Sandor :
    To Leaveyour….:
    It is not a particular sentence that is objectionable in you. In fact, your sentences are fine. But it is the sinister lie you are suggesting in every one of your fine sentences. You are odious in all your fineness, No refutation is necessary, because the lie is not just in the sentence, but in the intention that cannot escape notice, no matter the sentence.
    You are an other little disciple of Mussolini, the well-spoken maniac, and murderer, who could quote the classics at will, while sending out the thugs to the streets. And you advocate the same spirit here in well crafted sentences, like your lord and master does, while robbing the country blind. This is what you call Fidesz politics and there is no sanctimonious moralizing, no well crafted sentence, and no linguistic duplicity that can mask that.
    Get out of my face you dirty fascist!

    “The lie is not in the sentence, but in the intention. The sentences are fine. Dirty fascist etc” – So, You have no other specific reason to hate me, and call me names just the FEELING (not knowledge) that I am fascist? How can anyone see others intentions? I don’t get it. Just because I remind You someone who hurt You a lot? You take revenge? I don’t understand. How could You be so sure about me, about that You are not mistaken, if You don’t bring up arguments?

    That is exactly how groups (blog communities, and guess what: nations) work – there is a kind of common sentiment, common experience, common language, common preferences – expulsion of those who are a bit out of this – finding arguments against them. The classic argument, the non plus ultra in the present and accepted hierarchy of values is: fascist. You hate so much a thing (nationalism and nationalists) in this blog, that You became quite alike it and similar to them. That is another problem with this blog: You praise values, but during argumentation and presentation of things in Hungary You ignore them, ignore the acceptance of the others – feeling entitled to do so, because of the superiority of liberalism or I don’t know, human rights etc.

    The Trianon issue had such a big echo a few days ago, ’cause in the Communism, it was the legitimate narrative that when they taught Trianon, they could not say that Trianon was unfair, ’cause that would have hurt the neighbouring “brother”countries + they had to react to the narrative of the Horthy regime, which blamed the Jews for everything. So they picked up the following: White terror, antisemitism of the regime, Kun Bela defended the country while Ferenc Julier and others betrayed it. That is why they (Louis, and others) started to bring up the unfairness of the Treaty) – they missed something, and it reminded them their studies. Bela Kun defended nothing, just exported communism, in order to preserve his regime he was ready to drop his “conquests”, later became a mass murderer:

    http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kun_B%C3%A9la#Tev.C3.A9kenys.C3.A9ge_K.C3.B6z.C3.A9p-Eur.C3.B3p.C3.A1ban.2C_hal.C3.A1l.C3.A1ig

    I don’t understand why we could not cry over Trianon, and why it is still presented as if it was a direct cause of the Holocaust, and those poor guys who got stuck outside of Hungary deserved what they got – someone wrote that . Why can’t we cry over every tragedies in Hungarian History? Why is it a crime, or target of sarcasms or anger, that we had a trauma. How could others want to their traumas accepted and understood, if they don’t act likewise?

  25. I respect Bajnai to even enter the game — we did not.

    Only I think without vision and a personality that allows hims/herself (i) to be agressive/ruthless when necessary and (ii) to forget about inhibitions/looking for approval from the West (which Orbán does successfuly, he gives a damn about the West and use them out) you cannot win in Hungary, especially not against Orbán. His mafia is too entrechend to be defeated by such mild mannered people like Bajnai.

    And Fidesz can always count on the support of Jobbik (whether to amend the constitution or in votes for other measures). One makes a mistake if one thnks that Jobbik is a separate party, essentially it’s a reserve/extension of Fidesz, that’s all.

  26. pleaseleaveyourcommenthere :
    I don’t understand why we could not cry over Trianon, and why it is still presented as if it was a direct cause of the Holocaust, and those poor guys who got stuck outside of Hungary deserved what they got – someone wrote that . Why can’t we cry over every tragedies in Hungarian History? Why is it a crime, or target of sarcasms or anger, that we had a trauma. How could others want to their traumas accepted and understood, if they don’t act likewise?

    Here is your problem. Your are pretending that the conversation about Trianon never took place on this blog. For that matter we had more conversations about Trianon on this blog then about any other subjects. It is a conversation that comes up over and over. THis is the subject that almost every single “right-minded” individual brings up to occupy space. If you would take the time and do a search on this blog (as I suggested, and you ignored) you would fine that most of the “left-minded”, “liberal” (call it as you wish) person on this blog already expressed how unfortunate that Hungary ended up loosing so much.
    Our sorry, at the same time does not stand in the way of facts and of realizing, why and how this misfortune happened. It did happen, and it is over. There is nothing we can do to change it, except to go to war and that plan seems to unfold, although not literally.
    Hungary’s current problems will not be solved by talking about Trianon endlessly. This blog had a fair share of individuals coming to this blog, start to talk about Trianon or expressing nationalistic values, then after two-three posts turning it into “it is all the jews fault”. It does happen almost every single time. Eva kindly banned the person from this blog who helped to finance some of the most hideous right-wing kind of supports.
    You come here as a new poster, and expect us start every single conversation from square one. You know what? We are tired of it. HAve some courtesy, do your homework, and check the previous threads. You want to talk about Trianon any further? Good. I agree. You should. It is free and very simply to start a new blog. Go for it. I do not visit Magyar Hirlap, Magyar Nemzet at all. I sometime visit Mandiner, but I do not expect them to turn around in their thinking just because I looked them up.
    You are going on and on, pages after pages about the same subject. You are ready to pounce on anything just to push it back to a conversation that has no use.
    I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders? Changing the borders would only be relevant if Hungary would want to jump out of the EU, and honestly I think maybe that is something that Orban and his group truly wants. Do you think that would be the best interest of Hungary?

  27. Brilliant reply – Some1. I cannot wait to see whether ‘please…there’ responds in any meaningful way.

  28. some1: “I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders?”

    Hmmmmm Maybe next year in Kolozsvar….just like next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks????

  29. Sir / Madam!

    don’t have much time, so in a nutshell

    We are not talking about the same – I guess we both have our picture of the others and we are reflecting to this one, instead of each other.

    This blog entry had the title: coming to an understanding of Mr. Orbán and his followers. The basic question was: How on Earth is this possible, that no one cares about the Tavares-report, while everybody paid attention to Trianon here. This could not be understod to Éva S. Balogh.

    I wanted to give You an insight:
    1. She did no treat the anniversary properly according to me – using the narrative of the past era. It is all right that the other time she wrote about it, but especially on the day of the anniversary? Seemed insensible.

    2. She sees revisionism here – I read some of the previous entries (especially on the latest book of Mr. Krausz on the attrocities). I knew many of the atrocities, they were a part of our lives: we were taught: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL_M96E_NBc and István Kossa A Dunától a Donig. etc I don’t repeat myself on the history.

    3. Personally I don’t understand what has the commemorations of Trianon got to do with the redoing of the borders? It is over, done etc The past passed away. All we can do now, is to protect the Hungarians outside in the framework of international law, just like the Austrians did in Southern-Tirol. It is a duty, it was prescribed in the previous constitution as well. (§3-6 I guess)

    4. On the Tavares-report: This whole EU-project is a huge deception for right wingers: we thought that it would be some kind of brotherhood of the nations, which represents some kind of superior thinking, the Truth, the goal of the European History – what we got was a bureaucratic monster: in 1957 it was a free trade area, now it has its own army! Powers must be balanced + nations exist for centuries = transform into De Gaulle’s idea, EU is the Union of the nations. The EP is a self-promoting, self-building organisation – it is just another dude who wants to get in the spotlight.

    5. Hungary is too small a country to ignore the Magyar Nemzet and Magyar Hirlap – I read Népszava and Népszabi, and Galamus, and HVG too

  30. Sandor :
    Well, I am not. The sooner I see his”hated back” the happier I shall be. Do not encourage the nasty little twerp!

    You should be moderated, I guess…

  31. Louis Kovach :
    some1: “I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders?”
    Hmmmmm Maybe next year in Kolozsvar….just like next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks????

    My dear Mr. Kovach, what is stopping you from going to Kolozsvar this year? This month? This week? Or tomorrow? And to speak Hungarian there to your heart’s content?
    My point exactly: in the Union this is no longer a problem.

  32. Louis Kovach :
    some1: “I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders?”
    Hmmmmm Maybe next year in Kolozsvar….just like next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks????

    I am sorry, how does Jerusalem comes in here? Was Jerusalem was part of Hungary before? Is Israel part of the European Union? I am sorry I missed that. Oh, by selected folks you mean the Jews. You just cannot surpres that little anti-semite in your heart, can you? Did your turul heart occupied your brain? Do you want to compare Hungary to the Tutsis and Hutus too. One more time Kovacs, as you seem to forget it each time, this blog is about HUNGARY. NOt about Israel, not about the USA, bit about Rwanda, or Maldive, not about the Turkish conflict either. Get it?

  33. leaveyourcommenthere :
    Sir / Madam!
    don’t have much time, so in a nutshell
    [……..]
    1. She did no treat the anniversary properly according to me – using the narrative of the past era. It is all right that the other time she wrote about it, but especially on the day of the anniversary? Seemed insensible.

    How about the day before? It was there. How many people dies because of Trianon? THe borders are open my friend, all open. You want to go and visit any “lost territories”, go for it.
    Tell me who is stopping you.
    I di not see Eva posting anything on August 29 either. WHat kind of Hungarain are you, not to mention that?

    3. Personally I don’t understand what has the commemorations of Trianon got to do with the redoing of the borders? It is over, done etc The past passed away. All we can do now, is to protect the Hungarians outside in the framework of international law, just like the Austrians did in Southern-Tirol. It is a duty, it was prescribed in the previous constitution as well. (§3-6 I guess)

    If you do not see commemorating TRianon has to do with the borders, why is it so freaking important to you to remember it on the day. Protecting Hungarians does not need to happen on the day of the Trianon, does it? How about protecting Hungarians inside the border from Fidesz and Jobbik, like the Hungarian gypsies, Hungarian Jews, and Hungarian homosexuals. Why don’t you speak up for their rights, and their protection? Not all Hungarians want to be protected by Orban across the borders either. Many people in Transylvania wants to be protected from him by the way, hence the elections that Kover, Orban and Fidesz tries to interfere with for years. THe laundering money over to their political buddies, who would serve their interests.

    5. Hungary is too small a country to ignore the Magyar Nemzet and Magyar Hirlap – I read Népszava and Népszabi, and Galamus, and HVG too

    As I always say “we vote with out fingers”, and I have no reason to visit trash publications just to make their numbers look better, hence no Magyar Nemzet type of publications for me. Other trusted publications report back regularly at any case on garbage that some of those types of publications publish.

  34. Louis Kovach :
    some1: “I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders?”
    Hmmmmm Maybe next year in Kolozsvar….just like next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks????

    Lovely. If Jews had the right for their own state so do the Hungarians.

    Kovach, I don’t care what you dream about. Trianon or having sex with Marilyn Monroe. Just don’t poison the mind of our children.

  35. Dear Sir / Madam!

    It is an honor for me to be Your friend.

    Why are the minority rights of the Hungarians outside and the rights of homosexuals are opposed to each other? I don’t get it. Or if the minority rights of the gypsies are not protected sufficiently – according to You – then let’s drop the Hungarians? Seriously, I don’t understand. For the treatment of minority groups in Hungary, please visit:

    http://www.egyenlobanasmod.hu/index.php?lang=en
    http://www.ajbh.hu/en/web/ajbh-en/
    http://www.mklu.hu/cgi-bin/index.pl?lang=hu/

    For civil organisations:
    http://helsinki.hu/en/
    http://ataszjelenti.blog.hu/2012/09/13/ugat_544
    They are explaining why they don’t care about the Hungarians outside and only the gypsies and gays inside… If I am not mistaken You brought up something similar…

    Who does not protect the rights of the gypsies?

    Why is it so freaking important to go to the cemeteries on the 1st of Nov. Do Your beloved come back? I don’t get it.

    Regarding Your reading habit – well, I prefer know the opinion of the others before making my decision.

  36. Sandor :

    Louis Kovach :
    some1: “I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders?”
    Hmmmmm Maybe next year in Kolozsvar….just like next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks????

    My dear Mr. Kovach, what is stopping you from going to Kolozsvar this year? This month? This week? Or tomorrow? And to speak Hungarian there to your heart’s content?
    My point exactly: in the Union this is no longer a problem.

    “Next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks” for me as a Jew means longing for a world of justice and peace where all humans can live together with mutual respect. For other Jews it might mean something else,

    You seem to be suggesting that I want to kick other people out of the city of Jerusalem. That is an example of a misunderstanding of my religion.

    This might seem off topic, but one of the common statements of Hungarian anti-semities (I am NOT accusing you of anti-semitism here- just talking about one of the common anti-semitic sentiments found in Hungary) is that Jews are only out for themselves, and that they are not patriotic to Hungary only to Israel. I reject this. I am proud of my Hungarian and Jewish heritage, and I strongly oppose kicking anyone out of the city of Jerusalem. My hope that we can all come to a better world- that is my Jerusalem.

    I am not speaking for other Jews, but that is my belief, and I’m not the only one to feel this way.

  37. leaveyourcommenthere :

    Regarding Your reading habit – well, I prefer know the opinion of the others before making my decision.

    As I stated, it is not that I did not read those papers before. THere is a point in life when we are bombarded with information from every and each direction. I do not have all the time to waste. THere are some information that I do not need further explanation of. Example, when skinheads attack and shoot gypsy children, I do not need to read a right wing newspaper that explains to me why would this be right. When skinheads attack homosexuals on the streets, when, bikers want to drive with signs next to Jews that says “give more gas” (or something like that) I do not need to much explanation. There is not so much difference between kuricinfo, magyar nemzet, magyar hirlap, and I will simply do not read them. THis is just one of difference between you and I. Facts do not need explanations. I like to share my thoughts with likeminded people. On the other hand I will not read more and more from people who’s favourite book is the Mein Kampf. THere is no way on earth I would want to read further from the likes of Zsolt Bayer or from anyone who tries to explain to me how misunderstood poor Bayer is. Trust me I would not even read from Orban and his gang, but they run the country at this point.

    I really can’t argue about your other points as I feel like we are running in circles.

  38. Some1 :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    Regarding Your reading habit – well, I prefer know the opinion of the others before making my decision.

    As I stated, it is not that I did not read those papers before. THere is a point in life when we are bombarded with information from every and each direction. I do not have all the time to waste. THere are some information that I do not need further explanation of. Example, when skinheads attack and shoot gypsy children, I do not need to read a right wing newspaper that explains to me why would this be right. When skinheads attack homosexuals on the streets, when, bikers want to drive with signs next to Jews that says “give more gas” (or something like that) I do not need to much explanation. There is not so much difference between kuricinfo, magyar nemzet, magyar hirlap, and I will simply do not read them. THis is just one of difference between you and I. Facts do not need explanations. I like to share my thoughts with likeminded people. On the other hand I will not read more and more from people who’s favourite book is the Mein Kampf. THere is no way on earth I would want to read further from the likes of Zsolt Bayer or from anyone who tries to explain to me how misunderstood poor Bayer is. Trust me I would not even read from Orban and his gang, but they run the country at this point.
    I really can’t argue about your other points as I feel like we are running in circles.

    I can’t recall who wrote anything approving the murdering of the gypsies. I do not know whose favorite book is Mein Kapf. Who is it? I do not know why reading an article of any newspaper would mean that You like it or You fully agree with it. MN is not only Mr. Bayer, as the NOL is not only Dóra Ónody Molnár. You got it right, You can not see ANY difference between patriotism and extreme right. Even John Lukacs writes that there is distinction between them.

    But that is OK, that’s how the supporters of the left see the right win in Hungary. That is how You were socialized, Your experience taught You that. I could not change this. Just wanted to cause some cognitive dissonance here, that not everybody on the right is a kapo. It is just exhausting to always prove that I am not a fascist ( I was called that way! – I could tell who is gonna react to this) – it resembles that Soviet point of View: rightist = fascist

    The right wing’s opinion is that no matter what right wing politicians do, it would not be enough, so there is no need to fulfill their demands, that is why rightists should follow their own values, and do not pay too much attention to – what they see as – leftist hysteria. The left always find some criteria which the rightist must fulfill, Mr. Orbán is being asked to distance himself from extreme rightists, even though he goes to synagogues, calls Jews the gift of God, sends Gypsy MP to the EP (first female gypsy MP ever !!!!!!), bans the kuruc.info, which always depicts him as jew + gypsy.

    Mr Rogán (FIDESZ) went to an antifascist festival as a gesture to reconciliate? He was whistled at.
    Give more gas festival? Mr Orbán banned this. Next day’s headline from the Népszava or some other leftist journal: we live in a dictature, ’cause the PM bans manifestations. Or if there is some good news, which fulfill the demands of the left, then it is presented while undoing it: “well yes, he-he, we got out of the excessive debt process BUT…!”

    Speaking of that it is out-of-date always yelling at the majoritiy when there is a gypsy-not gypsy cohabitation problem is fascism? That the ratio of gypsies in prison is disturbingly high/ that in Amsterdam, the 2/3 of the prostitutes are gypsies, bossed by gypsy family members/ that the gipsies fled to Canada to exploit its generous aid system and doing so they drew up horrible conditions here, while they came back to pick their social aids- is this fascism? That faking homosexual acts on stage on the Andrássy, during Gay Pride is disgusting – while the LGBT- community did not give a …. towards other sexual minorities – is this fascism?

    For a rightist it gives the impression, that the leftists are a kind of hysterical, neurotical dudes, in a state of a kind of a neurotical repetition of the Holocaust/ who were unable to govern, all they did was finding excuses (the IMF wants this or that) and raising complaints (what the FIDESZ wants is populist, it is MR. ORbán who is governing the country in opposition, not us, it is his fault etc), and cited their embededness in western journals/ institutions but were unable to reach anything in a competition (it is the EU), which is based on the confrontation of NATIONAL interests! That is why folks decided to vote for Mr. Orbán, and not because of nationalism or fascism.

    This blog could have served as a platform for confronting the representation of each others, ’cause I think You would not recognize Yourself in my mind, as I can not identify myself in Your narrative. We can see the prejudices towards each other, it would not be a waste of time to collect these stereotypes. Both the leftist, both the rightist tradition has things to do.

    And trust me, there are not only idiots on the right side, for example the debate on Mr. Krausz book continued in the Magyar Nemzet: the shy guy from the interview of the ATV+ Mr. Szakály presented and evolved their opinion. And earlier, there was an article from Rabbi Köves on the relation of Jews and Hungarians etc. Life is too short to miss these. It is not for You

    And it is long text I wrote, but she wanted to understand how Mr. Orbán’s follower think. If something was not clear, don’t hesitate to ask. I have nothing to do with mass murderers/lunatics/Holocaust deniers. Just don’t feel the necessity to distance myself from them all the time.

    http://hetivalasz.hu/itthon/john-lukacs-antiszemitizmusrol-es-a-ket-jobboldalrol-64231/

    http://hetivalasz.hu/itthon/az-effele-mitoszok-terjesztese-gyalazatos-64431/?utm_source=mandiner&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=mandiner_201306

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/hungary-ignorant-nonsense

    http://mno.hu/belfold/a-volt-nszk-miniszteretol-kapott-bokot-a-magyar-alaptorveny-1159198

    Etc – etc.

  39. Mutt :

    Louis Kovach :
    some1: “I asked this before, and let me ask this again: What use the Trianon conversations have to the current state of Hungary? What use would be to change the borders?”
    Hmmmmm Maybe next year in Kolozsvar….just like next year in Jerusalem…..or dreaming of recovering territory populated by others is permitted to only select folks????

    Lovely. If Jews had the right for their own state so do the Hungarians.
    Kovach, I don’t care what you dream about. Trianon or having sex with Marilyn Monroe. Just don’t poison the mind of our children.

    You are a kindergarten teacher or You have little kids, right?

  40. Leaveyour-whatever. I approved your last one-liner but I’m warning you our patience is running out. The comments are of high quality and your comments don’t help the quality of the discourse. Try to raise your standards.

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