Viviane Reding is the target in the Hungarian “war of independence”

It is truly amazing how fast “scandals” can break out in Hungary especially if, as I suspect, there is a concerted effort on the part of the government to create them. Here I was without a computer for two days and almost missed “the greatest scandal of the European Union.” Or at least this is what Fidesz MEP László Surján claims. He was talking about accusations originating in Hungarian circles about Viviane Reding, European Commissioner  for Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship. She is accused of trying to cast a shadow on the outcome of next year’s national election. Of course, the assumption is that Fidesz will again win the election, but the “enemies of Hungary” led by Viviane Reding herself will question the validity of this outcome.

What happened? On the morning of June 18 Magyar Nemzet came out with a news item that began an avalanche of articles, to be precise fifteen in number, within two and a half days. According to the article, the paper received information from Brussels that Reding along with José Manuel Barroso had attended the Bilderberg Conference held in England between June 6 and 9. The Bilderberg Group which organizes these conferences was created with a view to building bridges between the United States and the European Union. It is often the target of far-right groups in the U.S. as well as in Europe.

At the conference allegedly fifteen minutes were devoted to the case of Hungary during which Reding informed her audience of her efforts on behalf of the Hungarian opposition to cast a shadow on the purity of the forthcoming Hungarian elections. These opposition forces are allegedly being financed by the United States. In no time it also became clear that Gordon Bajnai and Ferenc Gyurcsány are involved in this plot as well. At this point Magyar Nemzet didn’t reveal the origin of its story but later we found out that the source was an unnamed Italian “official.”

By the afternoon the Fidesz script was already written. It was most likely also decided that it will be the Christian Democrats who will lead the charge against Reding. I guess the Fidesz strategists remain convinced that those “ignorant bureaucrats” in Brussels don’t realize that Fidesz and KDNP are one and the same. Occasionally there is a division of labor depending on the issue. In any case, a few hours after the first article appeared on June 18 the Christian Democrats already had a communiqué ready. They will sue Reding and everybody else involved. By the next day they demanded her resignation. A Christian Democrat MEP, László Surján, officially approached the appropriate committee to investigate her case. He also called for her resignation.

Meanwhile back home Zsolt Semjén, chairman of the party and deputy prime minister; Péter Harrach, whip of the Christian Democratic caucus; and the spokesman of the party, István Pálffy, did the talking. They were everywhere, but HírTV, the pro-government television station owned by the same group that is in charge of Magyar Nemzet, was especially full of interviews. By the time the Christian Democrats began talking in the electronic media there was no doubt in their minds that Reding is guilty of the charge. She really did reveal that she was conspiring with the Hungarian opposition against the rightful government of the country.  Harrach was especially adamant. Perhaps they will not be able to prove it, but they are convinced that the report coming from Brussels is “true.” Reding should not only be removed but should disappear altogether from the political life of her country and the Union. Pálffy even went so far as to talk about possible withdrawal from the Union if the present structure of the EU is changed in 2020.

Goddess Diana hunting / Wikipedia

Goddess Diana hunting / Wikipedia

On what basis does the Hungarian government hiding behind the nonexistent Christian Democratic party accuse Viviane Reding of criminal behavior? The man who first reported that Reding would attend the Bilderberg Conference was István Lovas, Magyar Nemzet‘s correspondent in Brussels. The readers of Hungarian Spectrum are most likely unfamiliar with his name because lately he hasn’t been in the limelight unlike during the 1998-2002 period when he had a rather unsavory reputation. At that time he was in charge of creating a right-wing pro-Fidesz corps of journalists. His students were told to keep lists of “unreliable” foreign journalists who were critical of the first Orbán government. Altogether he has a murky past. As a young man in Hungary he was accused of rape. Later he illegally left Hungary and worked for Radio Free Europe in Munich for a while, but apparently he couldn’t get along with anyone. He also spent some time in California where he left behind a wife and child whom he refused to support.

In any case, Lovas claims that sometime in April a mysterious Italian official approached him with the news that Reding would be attending the Bilderberg Conference. Lovas approached Reding’s spokeswoman who told him that this was the first time she had heard about such a trip. So he dropped the story, but the journalists at Magyar Nemzet didn’t. They madly tried to learn something about the Bilderberg Group and were happy to discover that an economist known for her far-right views was the first in Hungary to call attention to this evil secret organization. Then they approached the liberal Paul Lendvai who attended three of these conferences between 1968 and 1993. Lendvai assured them that there was nothing sinister about these meetings between politicians and influential European and American businessmen. I’m certain that the Magyar Nemzet journalists opted to believe the right-leaning economist and not Paul Lendvai, whom they consider “an enemy of the country.” Obviously the Bilderberg Group and Reding interested them greatly, and they published a number of articles about the Bilderberg conferences.

Then came June 5 when Lovas’s mysterious informer, the Italian official,  told him that the conference would have a 15-minute discussion on Hungary. The conference ended on June 10, and I assume that further details about this 15-minute discussion must have reached Lovas soon thereafter. So why the long wait to break the story? My guess is that Magyar Nemzet withheld it until Fidesz-KDNP could create its own version.

What most likely helped their work was that during the weekend both Gordon Bajnai and Ferenc Gyurcsány talked about the growing fear that is gripping the country and about stories circulating of hidden cameras above the voting booths. With that the connection between Reding and the opposition could easily be established.

Reding categorically denied the story and the European Commission announced that it has no intention of investigating Reding’s alleged criminal activity.

By the way, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Hungary actually came up in the discussion. After all, the Hungarian government’s behavior in the European Union has been causing considerable headache for the EU leadership and parliament lately. Reding may even have described the general atmosphere in Hungary and the fear of political retribution spreading in the country. However, the rest of the story is simply unbelievable. Reding is a seasoned politician who has been in political life since 1979; she wouldn’t share such a bizarre story even if it were true. As I said, she may have talked about the fear of possible electoral fraud and/or fear of the almighty and very aggressive Fidesz. But the rest of the story was concocted somewhere in the witches’ kitchen of Fidesz-KDNP’s strategists.

But this is a dangerous game. Both Barroso and Reding are members of the European People’s party. What do the Hungarian Christians want to achieve with this frontal attack on a fellow Christian Democrat? I can’t imagine that this attack could possibly help the Hungarian cause. But perhaps their minds work differently from mine.

60 comments

  1. Very patiently outlined ! I live in North East Hungary, territory for fidesz and non-liberal thinking. Try explaining your reasoning as I try to a steel-worker friend. But he just repeats incessantly: “Those bureaucrats are against us in Brussels. They taking their frustration out on poor liiitle Hungary.”

    I dare you to come up with a simple explanation that I can hand to him. Would you be so kind? I’ll do the translation if needed.

  2. Andy: I di ask the following question from many of those Fidesz Troopers who you see often posting here: Why would any foreign identity want to buy up or take over Hungary? What is it to gain? Some of our readers’ right leaning relatives are sure that it is for the fresh water. In fact I posted a serious charts about that Hungary’s fresh water is mainly form outside the country. THe agriculture is collapsing at the present time. The world is in financial crises as we discuss this, and not for a moment a serious thinking individual could believe that the USA or the EU would have the time and energy to invest so much in a Hungarian takeover. At this point in time they try to solve their own economical crises and Hungary is not the answer.
    So, who can really make profits in Hungary? THe Simicskas, and their interests. Follow the tobacco, follow the land deals, and follow the government contracts. THat is where the money is, and that is something that some will not be giving up easily, and it is not Reding.

  3. I can be so easy to generate negative PR against a party like FIDESZ.
    The focus must be on: to be free or not to be free?
    The next point is the FIDESZ AMT machine that accepts only select ATM cards.
    The two subjects have to be headline material every morning.

  4. Some details of that shady character István Lovas:
    >>A rather “interesting” variation on the theme is encountered in Hungary and belongs to Istvan Lovas, who happens to be Jewish. His ethnic origin helps, of course, those interested in propagating precisely such opinions. Lovas argues that Jewish suffering during the Holocaust is largely due to the fact that Jews had sided with the Allies and, what is more, participated in revolts in ghettos and concentration camps (Braham, 2001). Lovas’s publishing outlets include Kairosz Kiado, which has brought up his “collected works.” The same publisher puts on the market the works of “historians” associated with the official 21st Century Institute, headed by former Premier Victor Orban’s senior adviser, Maria Schmidt (see Kenedi, 2001). <>Imre Kertész’s Nobel prize – according to some highly dubious but nevertheless clear logic – whipped up a renewed wave of Holocaust relativism in a quite small circle, but strongly nonetheless. The representatives of this logic propose it out of fear and caution before “we strong-arm Hungary into a mea culpa as Germany was.”12 István Lovas, for example, – as we find out from an open letter to Péter Bárándy13 – had no qualms about spending money in Italy to buy the book The Illustrated History of Nazi Germany, where he learned that the number of Jews lost in the Holocaust (“as you know, Hitler didn’t commit genocide against the Jews, but just the European Jews”, writes Lovas, and obviously this sentence means “only the European ones” or it means: the European Jews are not the Jews) “is over 5 million and the number of Jews from Hungary lost [sic] is more than 180,000”. They don’t say how much more, but it is possible that it is so much more that we get to Kertész’s figure of 800,000. The point of this letter is a number, or rather two numbers: that according to the Italian book, there were only 180,000 victims, as opposed to 800,000 for Kertész. According to Lovas, Kertész is lying many times over about the real figure.<<

    13 István Lovas, “Nyílt levél Bárándy Péter igazságügy-miniszternek (Open Letter to Justice MinisterPéter Bárándy),” Magyar Demokrata, December 12, 2002.
    ANTI-SEMITIC DISCOURSE IN HUNGARY IN 2002-2003 Report and Documentation p 195
    In anti-Semitic literature the myth that the press and the media is controlled by Jews is a separate category, and there is ample reference to it in Demokrata as well. According to them, in Hungary there are broadcasting services that expressly operate under Jewish control, and also, “the Jews” are able to influence efficiently the content appearing in Hungarian media: “ATV channel (…) is in the hands of a pro-Israeli sect.”80 “The neo-Nazi, racist heavies of the Hungarian Television”81 falsify their reports on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in favor of Israel, they lie, disparage the Palestinian Authority, and hush up news that are unpleasant for the Jewish side.82 At the same time, “the Israeli ambassador always protests whenever there is (was) a report on television (these cannot be seen any more) or on the radio which does not correspond to his ideas.”83 The magazine is convinced that Hungarian media authorities are also under Jewish influence because, when the managing director of MAZSIHISZ (Alliance of Jewish Communities in Hungary) submitted a complaint to ORTT (National Radio and Television Commission) about a commentary read out in Hungarian Radio’s program Vasárnapi újság (Sunday News), which he deemed to be anti-Semitic, “ORTT, quite astonishingly, immediately launched an investigation upon Zoltai’s urging, following which ORTT, in a procedure resembling martial law proceedings, condemned Hungarian Radio.”84 On another occasion, a columnist of the magazine urges the Budapest Ambassador of the Palestinian Authority to file a complaint with the media commission, for “Everyone should see whose interests are served, similarly to the public television, by ORTT.”85 This closes the circle. In Demokrata’s world, the media and the authorities supervising it are alike controlled by “the Jews”.-
    80 István Lovas, “O. J. Simpsontól Grespikig (From O. J. Simpson to Grespik),” Magyar Demokrata, December 12
    81 István Lovas, “Közszolgálati rasszizmus (Racism in Public Media),” Magyar Demokrata, March 13, 2003.
    82 Ibid.
    83 Ibid.
    84 István Lovas, “Posztumusz üdvözlet (Posthumous Greeting),” Magyar Demokrata, September 25, 2003.
    85 István Lovas, “Közszolgálati rasszizmus (Racism in Public Media),” Magyar Demokrata, March 13, 2003.
    p 270-271 ibid

    Click to access antisemitism-2003.pdf

  5. For critical overview of Lovas’s background and political-historical views, see, for example. Sándor Révész, “Egy plagizátor” (A Plagiarizer), Élet és Irodalom (Liefe and Literature), Budapest, April 10, 2001; László Karsai, “Holokauszt, egyediség, tények, hazugságok” (The Holocaust: Uniqueness, Facts, Lies), ibid; May 11, 2001 Part II appeared in the May 21 issue of ES
    The treatment of the Holocaust in Hungary and Romania during the post-communist era
    Randolph L. Braham, City University of New York. Institute for Holocaust Studies

  6. Actually, might this have been a tactical mistake by the Orbanists?

    With all the rumours of possible ballot-box chicanery flying round and with a deep knowledge of Fidesz’s fascist instincts… if I were a part of the democratic opposition, I would be pushing for independent, international election observers for next year.

    It can be even sold as a sop to the paranoia of the fundamentalist bigots of the KDNP- you think Reding and her cohort of Hungarian traitors are going to attempt to influence the election? Then get in the independents observers to prove you right?

    If the Mafia refuse it, then the natural question internationally will be “why would the government of a EU country not welcome the confirmation of its democratic credentials?”

    Alternatively, “this greatest scandal in the EU” could be the first excuse to be utilised in the plan to “postpone” next year’s vote. Not completely beyond the realms of possibility, unfortunately.

  7. The European Union and its high ranked persons icnluding Viviane Reding gets what they deserve. They should have known and they did, that Orban bilding an Authoritarianism regime since he won the last election. He started with the ruin of the Constitution, the regulation of the freedom of press, and made many antidemocratic steps only on purpose to remain in power as long as possible. And the European Union does not made anything to stop Orban. What have done that was not enought. The Hungarian people are misused because the Orban government directs the so called Közszolgálati média. These medias are neider objectiv nor true. And the most difficult problem is tha the election of 2014 imposible to win by the Democratic Opposition, beccause of the Hungarian election system tha is created for to winby the Fidesz-KDNP. Even if the contrary could happen this government will cheat the election.
    Finally. The EU did nothing in time. At the bigining of the fire startid. For the European People Party the loyalty came first. And I am telling you Who had Experienced three dictatorships in my life time, that after not so long you will see how is working the new one in the midle of The Democratic Europe. The Hungarian people are not about to enyoj it. But What about you?

  8. «The Bilderberg Group (…) is often the target of far-right groups in the U.S. as well as in Europe.» — Actually, it is even more often the target of far-left groups, at least in “Western” Europe.

    Such an angle may indeed seem odd at first sight, considering prominent members of the German CDU, British Conservative Party, Spanish PP, French UMP etc. have attended these conferences in the past twenty years. All EPP member parties at a European level. Now, Mz Reding is often personally taken as a punching-ball by various members of right-wing European parties, but in this case I guess the Magyar Nemzet article gives away the essential talking point: the target is the “left-liberals” (balliberális).

    Well, they’re spot-on. Indeed, the EU was built on a political consensus beetween center-left and center-right parties. Although within left- or right- big parties in Europe there are, there has always been, divides on the future steps of the Union, this consensus is still pretty much alive today.

    However in this case, it is not an internal debate: this coordinated attack on its own European center-left allies signals that Fidesz-KDNP is heading straight for euroscepticism. They should be excluded from the EPP.

  9. “1996. június 2-án megjelent Izrael állam budapesti honosítási irodájában. Itzhak Blonder jegyzőkönyvébe diktált szavai szerint kérte zsidó honosítását és állampolgárságát Izrael egyik alaptörvénye, a The Law of Return 1. §-a szerint. A Magyarországon egyre erősödő antiszemitizmusra hivatkozott és arra, hogy feleségével együtt egy demokratikus országban szeretné felnevelni a gyerekét. ”

    KENEDI JÁNOS
    A szavahihetőség és Lovas István – IV.
    Elet es Irodalom
    XLV. évfolyam 25. szám, 2001. június 22.

  10. Welcome Gábor Király – “Experienced three dictatorships in my life time, that after not so long you will see how is working the new one in the midle of The Democratic Europe. The Hungarian people are not about to enyoj it. But What about you?”

    True tragedy. We are screaming here to wake up the sleeping conservative Hungarians,
    It is especially difficult with Hungarian exiles in USA, who drip from anti-communism.

    Another big sleeping section inside and outside of Hungary is still in denial. The Orban regime stole their freedom and money.

    Let us help to wake up the sleepers.

    Besides this blog, read galamus.hu. See the Andras Gero article today.

  11. Compliments to Karl Pfeifer.
    The rotten disinformation campaigns are remaining an old Hungarian cottage industry.
    They count on the hate-filled ignorance of many fellow citizens.

  12. andysomos :
    Very patiently outlined ! I live in North East Hungary, territory for fidesz and non-liberal thinking. Try explaining your reasoning as I try to a steel-worker friend. But he just repeats incessantly: “Those bureaucrats are against us in Brussels. They taking their frustration out on poor liiitle Hungary.”
    I dare you to come up with a simple explanation that I can hand to him. Would you be so kind? I’ll do the translation if needed.

    As far as the Polls, and social researches show: The electorate of Hungarian left political parzies are mostly based on less educated workerclass and older pensionsers.

  13. hungariaCrying :
    Compliments to Karl Pfeifer.
    The rotten disinformation campaigns are remaining an old Hungarian cottage industry.
    They count on the hate-filled ignorance of many fellow citizens.

    Zoltán Zsille asked me in 1990 or 1991 to meet István Lovas. I met him at Gerbeaud in Budapest which was at the time affordable. Lovas asked me to introduce him to my friend Simon Wiesenthal.
    Lovas surprised me, when he said “Magyar úriember vagyok” (I am a Hungarian gentleman). I have met quiet a lot of gentlemen in my life, but never one who said I am a gentleman.
    I didn’t introduce Lovas to Wiesenthal.

  14. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    Wakulicus :
    As far as the Polls, and social researches show: The electorate of Hungarian left political parzies are mostly based on less educated workerclass and older pensionsers.

    Any source of this assertion?

    In fact, exactly the opposite is true. Here is Budapest where the educational attainment of the population is much higher than outside of it and here Fidesz today would lose the elections.

  15. Eva S. Balogh :

    Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    Wakulicus :
    As far as the Polls, and social researches show: The electorate of Hungarian left political parzies are mostly based on less educated workerclass and older pensionsers.

    Any source of this assertion?

    In fact, exactly the opposite is true. Here is Budapest where the educational attainment of the population is much higher than outside of it and here Fidesz today would lose the elections.

    Do you speak about just Bufdapest?
    And which parts of Budapest are leftist? The worker-class districts?

  16. AndySomos: how come the buracrats are not against Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Lituania etc. Why only Hungary?

    Plus: has the Hungarian government been successful, when compared to these countries? The answer is of course no, although to explain GDP and similar data is pretty difficult.

    We are no in the same league as Romania and Bulgaria. ALthough the are coming up too (Romania has a much better investment ratio, which will help its economy in the future).

    Also, where are the jobs? Orbán promised 1m jobs. Where are they??

    Why is it good to let Simicska and friends steal literally hundreds of billions of forints?

    Etc.

  17. OT but here is a “pirate” video from Friday’s scandal in parliament just before the vote on the agrarian law. Unfortunately it is in Hungarian but I don’t think that it needs much explanation. The Jobbik caucus managed to bring total chaos to the House and the Fidesz leadership was completely at a loss what to do. It is quite obvious that the very expensive new parliamentary guards cannot be really used in a situation like this.

    It is possible that the vote is not valid because the Christian Democratic deputy speaker left the pulpit which according to the house rules means that the session is adjourned. Considering what great patriots are members of the Jobbik they sure managed to butcher the national anthem. The funniest thing is when the remaining Fidesz MPs feel compelled to stand while the Jobbik members sing the anthem.

  18. Eva S. Balogh :

    Wakulicus :

    Do you speak about just Bufdapest?
    And which parts of Budapest are leftist? The worker-class districts?

    I’m talking about the whole city.

    Than examine the elite Buda districts.

  19. Eva S. Balogh :
    OT but here is a “pirate” video from Friday’s scandal in parliament just before the vote on the agrarian law. Unfortunately it is in Hungarian but I don’t think that it needs much explanation. The Jobbik caucus managed to bring total chaos to the House and the Fidesz leadership was completely at a loss what to do. It is quite obvious that the very expensive new parliamentary guards cannot be really used in a situation like this.
    It is possible that the vote is not valid because the Christian Democratic deputy speaker left the pulpit which according to the house rules means that the session is adjourned. Considering what great patriots are members of the Jobbik they sure managed to butcher the national anthem. The funniest thing is when the remaining Fidesz MPs feel compelled to stand while the Jobbik members sing the anthem.

    Eva S. Balogh :
    OT but here is a “pirate” video from Friday’s scandal in parliament just before the vote on the agrarian law. Unfortunately it is in Hungarian but I don’t think that it needs much explanation. The Jobbik caucus managed to bring total chaos to the House and the Fidesz leadership was completely at a loss what to do. It is quite obvious that the very expensive new parliamentary guards cannot be really used in a situation like this.
    It is possible that the vote is not valid because the Christian Democratic deputy speaker left the pulpit which according to the house rules means that the session is adjourned. Considering what great patriots are members of the Jobbik they sure managed to butcher the national anthem. The funniest thing is when the remaining Fidesz MPs feel compelled to stand while the Jobbik members sing the anthem.

    Eva S. Balogh :
    OT but here is a “pirate” video from Friday’s scandal in parliament just before the vote on the agrarian law. Unfortunately it is in Hungarian but I don’t think that it needs much explanation. The Jobbik caucus managed to bring total chaos to the House and the Fidesz leadership was completely at a loss what to do. It is quite obvious that the very expensive new parliamentary guards cannot be really used in a situation like this.
    It is possible that the vote is not valid because the Christian Democratic deputy speaker left the pulpit which according to the house rules means that the session is adjourned. Considering what great patriots are members of the Jobbik they sure managed to butcher the national anthem. The funniest thing is when the remaining Fidesz MPs feel compelled to stand while the Jobbik members sing the anthem.

    I’m afraid, Eva, you’ve been away so long from mother Hungary that you’ve lost the true flavor of Hungarian deviance and chicanery.

    To me, the whole parliamentary ruckus was a put up job–probably the evil genius of Orban, or Kover, or that weasly Antal.
    It all illustrated a number of things: first, the patience of the Fidesz speaker; the self-control of the speaker in not calling in the special guards; the mayhem that jobbik is capable of….et. et.

    It was quite a production. Of course, this is the groundwork for eventual, unlimited, armed action by the government…perhaps even the cancellation of the 2014 elections if they can get Jobbik
    to produce a dangerous enough looking uprising…

  20. Magyar Nemzet daily reported on Tuesday that Viviane Reding, the EU Justice Commissioner, said at the recent Bilderberg conference in England that she would do her utmost to question the legitimacy of the outcome of Hungary’s next general election.

    Bailly told MTI he would not respond to concrete statements attributed to the commissioner. Nevertheless he could state that the commission did not ever seek to influence the outcome of any election, should it be a European Parliamentary election, a general or a municipal election.

    Mina Andreeva, Reding’s spokeswoman, said that the Bilderberg conference was a closed-door event and therefore she could neither confirm nor deny any statements. She added that, in any case, she refused to comment on “media speculation”.

    typical ancient anglo-saxon methods agaisnt countries that want to be independant
    firstly promote some moronic clowns as “democratic” opposition.
    secondly orchestrate “large” protests made of a few hundreds participants (“democratic opposition” + useful idiots)
    then launch campaign in western media about national uprising in country and start question legality of local elected authorities.

  21. Huszar, why would they bother? What have the “anglo saxons” to gain from such a conspiracy? If they are not prepared to save the 1000s of lives being lost in Syria, then, in all honesty, they aren’t going to get their hands dirty taking on a EU state, regardless of the self delusions of grandeur of its Fuhrer?

  22. She participated in the Bildenberg conference? How come! A few days earlier she had denied that she would be there….

  23. Some1 :
    Andy: I di ask the following question from many of those Fidesz Troopers who you see often posting here: Why would any foreign identity want to buy up or take over Hungary? What is it to gain?

    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

  24. leaveyourcommenthere :

    She participated in the Bildenberg conference? How come! A few days earlier she had denied that she would be there….

    She didn’t deny it. It was her spokeswoman who had no knowledge of her going there. That was in April.

  25. Wakulicus :

    Eva S. Balogh :

    Wakulicus :

    Do you speak about just Bufdapest?
    And which parts of Budapest are leftist? The worker-class districts?

    I’m talking about the whole city.

    Than examine the elite Buda districts.

    You’re a bit thick. Even if in some Buda districts the Jobbik is strong it doesn’t mean that these Jobbik votes would make a difference. If elections were held now a united opposition would easily beat Fidesz.

  26. As always, I feel that Petofi is right. Elections are for the stupid.
    The Orbans will win with or without elections.
    Orban’s team is raking in money with increasing speed, and they will extend their rule by some smart tricks if necessary.

  27. leaveyourcommenthere :

    Some1 :
    Andy: I di ask the following question from many of those Fidesz Troopers who you see often posting here: Why would any foreign identity want to buy up or take over Hungary? What is it to gain?

    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You kidding us. Are you? Are you suggesting that the French, the English will go to war for Hungary? Are you suggesting that the littles speckle sized Hungary (in comparison to French Africa) would worth so much for these foreign conspirators that they will forget all about their current economical problems and they will go to take over Hungary just to show how powerful they are?
    You also need to brush up about your history of colonization. It was not the sand that they were after, but slave trade was big business, my friend. Also gum arabic, cotton, and peanuts were very important. Slave trade is non-existent, and you can find cheap labour in China (although Orban is very successful lately implementing some form of slavery with the unemployed). All the other goods can be sourced outside of Hungary. Let me ask you again, and I am expecting a reasonable answer, and educated answer: Why would the French, English, Germans and Americans want to take over Hungary? WHat’s in it for them?

  28. leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You could at least read a little about the History of French colonization, before writing such nonsense.

  29. HUSZÁR :
    Magyar Nemzet daily reported on Tuesday that Viviane Reding, the EU Justice Commissioner, said at the recent Bilderberg conference in England that she would do her utmost to question the legitimacy of the outcome of Hungary’s next general election.
    Bailly told MTI he would not respond to concrete statements attributed to the commissioner. Nevertheless he could state that the commission did not ever seek to influence the outcome of any election, should it be a European Parliamentary election, a general or a municipal election.
    Mina Andreeva, Reding’s spokeswoman, said that the Bilderberg conference was a closed-door event and therefore she could neither confirm nor deny any statements. She added that, in any case, she refused to comment on “media speculation”.
    typical ancient anglo-saxon methods agaisnt countries that want to be independant
    firstly promote some moronic clowns as “democratic” opposition.
    secondly orchestrate “large” protests made of a few hundreds participants (“democratic opposition” + useful idiots)
    then launch campaign in western media about national uprising in country and start question legality of local elected authorities.

    Some people believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that at midnight the Elders of Zion congregate at the old Jewish cemetery in Prague in order to decide how to rule the world. This was modernized in Hungary. Now “journalist” István Lovas quotes an anonymous Italian who quotes Viviane Reding which is of course for the believers in Turulistan truth.
    No logic and no facts can convince those believers.
    They want to believe their great leader the Genius of the Karpats, the best footballplayer
    of Felcsút.

  30. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You could at least read a little about the History of French colonization, before writing such nonsense.

    Teach me!

  31. Some1 :

    leaveyourcommenthere :

    Some1 :
    Andy: I di ask the following question from many of those Fidesz Troopers who you see often posting here: Why would any foreign identity want to buy up or take over Hungary? What is it to gain?

    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You kidding us. Are you? Are you suggesting that the French, the English will go to war for Hungary? Are you suggesting that the littles speckle sized Hungary (in comparison to French Africa) would worth so much for these foreign conspirators that they will forget all about their current economical problems and they will go to take over Hungary just to show how powerful they are?
    You also need to brush up about your history of colonization. It was not the sand that they were after, but slave trade was big business, my friend. Also gum arabic, cotton, and peanuts were very important. Slave trade is non-existent, and you can find cheap labour in China (although Orban is very successful lately implementing some form of slavery with the unemployed). All the other goods can be sourced outside of Hungary. Let me ask you again, and I am expecting a reasonable answer, and educated answer: Why would the French, English, Germans and Americans want to take over Hungary? WHat’s in it for them?

    It was the slave trade…. 🙂 Slave trade abolition in France: 1848…. III. French Republic: 1871-1940, Taking of Africa by the French: after 1885
    You think that French Afrika was taken as a whole? It was taken gradually…
    Power wants more power – it is the nature of it – that is why there is a separation of power inside the countries… Hannah Arendt wrote in her Roots of totalitarianism, that it made no sense, it was just a kind of instinct. There will be always a reason to “neocolonize”. .. For the colonial thinking, please also consult: Capek, Letter of Alexander the Great to Aristotle

    When FIDESZ uses the We don’t want to be a colony slogan, they referred to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism

    Nehru wrote interesting thing on this issue, in the Discovery of India.

    The main question is still there unanswered: how is it possible to make the existence of a republican, democratic tradition compatible with the subordination of others? Why should we trust those, who managed to do it?

  32. leaveyourcommenthere :

    Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You could at least read a little about the History of French colonization, before writing such nonsense.

    Teach me!

    Are you too lazy to look for information? You want someone else to teach you? That’s an incredible attitude.

  33. Karl Pfeifer :

    HUSZÁR :
    Magyar Nemzet daily reported on Tuesday that Viviane Reding, the EU Justice Commissioner, said at the recent Bilderberg conference in England that she would do her utmost to question the legitimacy of the outcome of Hungary’s next general election.
    Bailly told MTI he would not respond to concrete statements attributed to the commissioner. Nevertheless he could state that the commission did not ever seek to influence the outcome of any election, should it be a European Parliamentary election, a general or a municipal election.
    Mina Andreeva, Reding’s spokeswoman, said that the Bilderberg conference was a closed-door event and therefore she could neither confirm nor deny any statements. She added that, in any case, she refused to comment on “media speculation”.
    typical ancient anglo-saxon methods agaisnt countries that want to be independant
    firstly promote some moronic clowns as “democratic” opposition.
    secondly orchestrate “large” protests made of a few hundreds participants (“democratic opposition” + useful idiots)
    then launch campaign in western media about national uprising in country and start question legality of local elected authorities.

    Some people believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that at midnight the Elders of Zion congregate at the old Jewish cemetery in Prague in order to decide how to rule the world. This was modernized in Hungary. Now “journalist” István Lovas quotes an anonymous Italian who quotes Viviane Reding which is of course for the believers in Turulistan truth.
    No logic and no facts can convince those believers.
    They want to believe their great leader the Genius of the Karpats, the best footballplayer
    of Felcsút.

    You are wrong, the existence Bilderberg Group is not a secret. There are many publications about them.

    The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club is an annual private conference of approximately 120 to 140 invited guests from North America and Europe, most of whom are people of influence.[2][3] About one-third are from government and politics, and two-thirds from finance, industry, labour, education and communications

    You can find a lot of videos about their assembly on youtube.

    CNN reports about Bilderberg Group:

    https://www.google.hu/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#sclient=psy-ab&q=%22bilderberg%20group%22%20site%3Acnn.com&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=b4b6b0c8afc74529&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48293060,d.bGE&biw=1920&bih=1017

    BBC reports about Bilderberg Group:

    https://www.google.hu/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#sclient=psy-ab&q=%22bilderberg%20group%22%20site%3Abbc.co.uk&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=b4b6b0c8afc74529&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48293060,d.bGE&biw=1920&bih=1017

    The REUTERS REPORTS bout Bilderberg group:

    https://www.google.hu/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#sclient=psy-ab&q=bilderberg+group+site:reuters.com&oq=bilderberg+group+site:reuters.com&gs_l=hp.3…7894.16502.2.16759.23.23.0.0.0.0.108.2151.19j4.23.0.eqrwrth..0.0.0..1.1.17.psy-ab.YBfg5oIL2Ls&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48293060,d.bGE&fp=b4b6b0c8afc74529&ion=1&biw=1920&bih=1017

  34. Eva S. Balogh :

    leaveyourcommenthere :

    Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You could at least read a little about the History of French colonization, before writing such nonsense.

    Teach me!

    Are you too lazy to look for information? You want someone else to teach you? That’s an incredible attitude.

    I am ready to learn from anyone – I read a lot about French colonialism, but I did not know what he/she meant. Why is my opennes incredible?

    Little more info about Reading, the Roma expulsion case, it is fun too 🙂

    “- France did harm to the Roma- She said! I will sue Paris!
    – Really? – answered the French – Where were You when the other countries kicked them out? Including Yours. We will transfer them to Your country!
    – Errr , uhm, he-he, anyway, that is not a big deal! Let’s forget it, right?”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viviane_Reding#Controversy_over_Roma

    The only romani member of the EU Parliament, Fidesz member (!) Lívia Járóka said something that it is very sad… Then the FIDESZ came, and invented some romani frame strategy on EU-level.

    Mme Reading seems to be someone who seeks more power, (as the EU constantly does so), while selling herself as a kind of promoter of human rights, but sometimes she meets a stronger dog – so she turn her attention to weaker countries.

  35. I simply cannot understand what nineteenth-century French colonialism has to do with European Union’s insistence that the Hungarian government follow the rules of the club Hungary joined.The EU is giving incredible amounts of money to Hungary in its convergence program without which the current Hungarian government would be in default by now. As it is it is unwilling to pay back the debt of the municipalities in full to the banks they accrued. That is called partial default. So, I would be quiet if I were one of the ardent Fidesz supporters. The country and especially the current government needs the EU.

  36. Eva S. Balogh :

    leaveyourcommenthere :

    Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You could at least read a little about the History of French colonization, before writing such nonsense.

    Teach me!

    Are you too lazy to look for information? You want someone else to teach you? That’s an incredible attitude.

    But we can try, anyway!
    It normally start like this:

    – Come here!… Come here!…. Sit! Sit! SIT!!
    And a couple of hours later:
    -Sit! …. Good Boy!!!

    Just a little patience, and it works even his/her case, you’ll see!

  37. leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    Certainly, the French thought that Africa was full of people more intelligent than you. Only a completely uneducated uncivilized person could think that Africa is “nothing but sand.”

    It doesn’t help the discussion to characterize an entire continent as worthless, even to make a rhetorical point.

  38. It was the slave trade…. Slave trade abolition in France: 1848…. III. French Republic: 1871-1940, Taking of Africa by the French: after 1885
    You think that French Afrika was taken as a whole? It was taken gradually…
    Power wants more power – it is the nature of it – that is why there is a separation of power inside the countries… Hannah Arendt wrote in her Roots of totalitarianism, that it made no sense, it was just a kind of instinct. There will be always a reason to “neocolonize”. .. For the colonial thinking, please also consult: Capek, Letter of Alexander the Great to Aristotle
    When FIDESZ uses the We don’t want to be a colony slogan, they referred to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
    Nehru wrote interesting thing on this issue, in the Discovery of India.
    The main question is still there unanswered: how is it possible to make the existence of a republican, democratic tradition compatible with the subordination of others? Why should we trust those, who managed to do it?

    Yes, thank you. I said you should learn. I did my learning prior to posting. you posting such nonsense that the French colonized Africa for the sand in order to show their power is certainly one of the top non-sense ever posted on the board, so I have no interest to read any further “facts” from you. You, my friend lost credibility when I reached the “sand” in your argument.
    Here is a little scholarly article for you. Please do not copy and paste here (or do not pull a Schmitt), we can all do our own research. Thank you.

  39. I’m afraid, Eva, you’ve been away so long from mother Hungary that you’ve lost the true flavor of Hungarian deviance and chicanery.
    To me, the whole parliamentary ruckus was a put up job–probably the evil genius of Orban, or Kover, or that weasly Antal.
    It all illustrated a number of things: first, the patience of the Fidesz speaker; the self-control of the speaker in not calling in the special guards; the mayhem that jobbik is capable of….et. et.
    It was quite a production. Of course, this is the groundwork for eventual, unlimited, armed action by the government…perhaps even the cancellation of the 2014 elections if they can get Jobbik
    to produce a dangerous enough looking uprising…

    Spot on, petofi!

  40. Eva S. Balogh :
    I simply cannot understand what nineteenth-century French colonialism has to do with European Union’s insistence that the Hungarian government follow the rules of the club Hungary joined.The EU is giving incredible amounts of money to Hungary in its convergence program without which the current Hungarian government would be in default by now. As it is it is unwilling to pay back the debt of the municipalities in full to the banks they accrued. That is called partial default. So, I would be quiet if I were one of the ardent Fidesz supporters. The country and especially the current government needs the EU.

    Eva the logic is simply “distraction”. It never failed to work for Fidesz. They distract from the real issues. Fidesz and their troopers are those entertainers who would do anything to stay relevant. If they make a mistake, then they come up with something more outrageous in order to distract from the real issues. No surprises there. As for the EU pumping money into Hungary? THey will never say and possibly their troopers do not even know it. As you already seen it here, their research skill is limited and they solely believe what the party allows them to believe.

  41. @leaveyourcommenthere :

    Because it was far from being ‘nothing but sand´ ! Plantation & fishing products, wood, rubber, palm oil, ivory, various ores, the control of major trade routes, against new consumers for basic manufactured commodities. Not to mention cannon fodder for “la revanche” on Germany. Drop wikipedia and get History books.

    Indeed, Ms Reding was attacked by members of the rightwing French majority in 2010 (one of whom even claiming Luxemburg should hardly exist as a state). But only by parts of it : the center-right dissociated from it, and so did heavyweight UMP leaders like Mr Juppé.

    By contrast, what strikes me in the present Hungarian case is the involvement of KDNP and the total lack of dissenting voices among Fidesz.

  42. Wakulicus :

    Karl Pfeifer :
    I know about Bilderberg. But if one believes István Lovas, one can also believe that the earth is flat.Fact is Fidesz wants to mobilize its believers with the old world conspiracy theory.
    So there is a very simple explanation for the failure of the Hungarian government to improve life for the masses of Hungarians: The foreigners are to blame and those …..

  43. Addendum about Ms Reding’s intervention in 2010 about the expulsions of Roma from France….

    1) She pointed out an infamous directive from the Home Office which specifically mentioned the Roma as an ethnic group – the French Government modified the text the following month.

    2) She threatened to initiate a procedure against France for flaws in its transcription of directive 2004/38/CE in its national law, especially when it came to the citizens’ legal protection when subject to an expulsion procedure. The French law was modified accordingly three months later.

    If the intention was to portray her as ineffective, somebody picked the wrong example… 🙂

  44. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :
    Addendum about Ms Reding’s intervention in 2010 about the expulsions of Roma from France….
    1) She pointed out an infamous directive from the Home Office which specifically mentioned the Roma as an ethnic group – the French Government modified the text the following month.
    2) She threatened to initiate a procedure against France for flaws in its transcription of directive 2004/38/CE in its national law, especially when it came to the citizens’ legal protection when subject to an expulsion procedure. The French law was modified accordingly three months later.
    If the intention was to portray her as ineffective, somebody picked the wrong example…

    Yeah, she made a good job…:
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/29/france-one-year-new-abuses-against-roma
    http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-european-union
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19398239
    http://www.nepszava.hu/articles/article.php?id=580378
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19194639

  45. Some1 :

    It was the slave trade…. Slave trade abolition in France: 1848…. III. French Republic: 1871-1940, Taking of Africa by the French: after 1885
    You think that French Afrika was taken as a whole? It was taken gradually…
    Power wants more power – it is the nature of it – that is why there is a separation of power inside the countries… Hannah Arendt wrote in her Roots of totalitarianism, that it made no sense, it was just a kind of instinct. There will be always a reason to “neocolonize”. .. For the colonial thinking, please also consult: Capek, Letter of Alexander the Great to Aristotle
    When FIDESZ uses the We don’t want to be a colony slogan, they referred to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
    Nehru wrote interesting thing on this issue, in the Discovery of India.
    The main question is still there unanswered: how is it possible to make the existence of a republican, democratic tradition compatible with the subordination of others? Why should we trust those, who managed to do it?

    Yes, thank you. I said you should learn. I did my learning prior to posting. you posting such nonsense that the French colonized Africa for the sand in order to show their power is certainly one of the top non-sense ever posted on the board, so I have no interest to read any further “facts” from you. You, my friend lost credibility when I reached the “sand” in your argument.
    Here is a little scholarly article for you. Please do not copy and paste here (or do not pull a Schmitt), we can all do our own research. Thank you.

    Sir/Ma’am!
    You missed what I tried to explain… I did not say that they colonize in order to show their power – which is not bad idea, BTW. They colonized, because they had power to do so.

    The top nonsense is this:
    “To think of these stars that you see overhead at night, these vast worlds which we can never reach. I would annexe the planets if I could; I often think of that. It makes me sad to see them so clear and yet so far.” – Cecil Rhodes. Infinite expansion is the main characteristic of (neo)colonialism. He never spoke about the vast oil or rubber or anything possibly found on these planets.

    You can find reasons later… Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin could find reasons to integrate this land to their empires…

  46. Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :
    @leaveyourcommenthere :
    Because it was far from being ‘nothing but sand´ ! Plantation & fishing products, wood, rubber, palm oil, ivory, various ores, the control of major trade routes, against new consumers for basic manufactured commodities. Not to mention cannon fodder for “la revanche” on Germany. Drop wikipedia and get History books.
    Indeed, Ms Reding was attacked by members of the rightwing French majority in 2010 (one of whom even claiming Luxemburg should hardly exist as a state). But only by parts of it : the center-right dissociated from it, and so did heavyweight UMP leaders like Mr Juppé.
    By contrast, what strikes me in the present Hungarian case is the involvement of KDNP and the total lack of dissenting voices among Fidesz.

    So, if there are plantations, a democracy has the right to colonize Africa… Not bad.

    The revanche thing is not bad too, unfortunatelly since the 1880’s the French public opinion was openly hostile to the colonisation, ’cause it weakens the French Army, sucking out the French troops to Tonkin and other places. Clemanceau hated colonialism at first for the same reason. It was the 1890es, when the french population realised, that they could use the Scrabble for Africa thing in favour of revanche, but the initial motivation was not that. If I am not mistaken Ferry was kicked out of office due to his failures there. No popular support existed then, it was the Colonial Party, which lobbied succesfully.
    http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rfsp_0035-2950_1968_num_18_6_393128

    I can not find more online source, JSTOR has multiple articles dealing with this issue.
    Or I can propose You Charles Robert Ageron’s book: France coloniale ou parti colonial?

    I answered to the problem of the success of Mme Reding below.

    Mr. Lovas is a slapping machine, he wants more readers. I do not know what she said during the conference, but I can imagine that she does not really likes this govmnt, and she does anything she can to bring it down.

  47. spectator :

    Eva S. Balogh :

    leaveyourcommenthere :

    Marcel Dé (@MarcelD10) :

    leaveyourcommenthere :
    Good questions, I did not really understand either why on Earth a democratic country, like France, occupied half of Africa: there was nothing but sand there…But later someone told me, that it is the nature of power…

    You could at least read a little about the History of French colonization, before writing such nonsense.

    Teach me!

    Are you too lazy to look for information? You want someone else to teach you? That’s an incredible attitude.

    But we can try, anyway!
    It normally start like this:
    – Come here!… Come here!…. Sit! Sit! SIT!!
    And a couple of hours later:
    -Sit! …. Good Boy!!!
    Just a little patience, and it works even his/her case, you’ll see!

    It is really an honour to have this kind of treatment. Your are a kind person.

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