Gábor Czene of Népszabadság conducted an interview with Tamás Fabiny, bishop of the northern district of the Hungarian Lutheran Church. Fabiny was ordained in Erlangen, Germany in 1982. He also studied in the United States. In addition to his church activities he worked for Duna TV. Since 2010 he has been the vice chairman of the Lutheran World Federation.
The Lutheran Church is the smallest of the three most important Hungarian congregations, after the Catholic and the Hungarian Reformed Churches. To my mind the Hungarian Lutherans have the most enlightened views on many issues, including the topics Bishop Fabiny is talking about here.
* * *
– We hear you are an eager fan of the football club Fradi – or at least you were in your childhood. Do you still attend matches?
– Hardly ever. But when the Fradi fell out of the first division, I went to their match as a demonstration. I felt an obligation to be there. I even wrote an article for the Lutheran weekly on the ability to lose. That we don’t always have to win. That a loss also has a lesson to teach.
– As for the state of Hungarian football today, that article will be appropriate for a long time. What do you think of the stadiums being built nowadays? For example, in a small village called Felcsút they are building an arena for 3500 spectators.
–I am astonished. I understand if the Prime Minister likes football and I can even imagine that he wants to prove that a small town can also have big dreams. But I just read that a match at the Puskás Academy was attended by only a hundred people. I support the founding of football academies in the country. With such a luxury investment, it would have been better to show some restraint.
– During the former socialist government, you said you could hardly wait to be the critic of a conservative government. With that, you not only expressed your demand for political change but also preserved the right of criticism. At a conference last spring you already warned about the risks of “political” Christianity.
– The conference was organized by young Christian Democrats and I had the feeling that they didn’t expect such an attitude from me. No problem. If I would always say what is expected of me, I would lose my credibility. Political Christianity refers to a situation in which those in power try to exploit the churches in a paternalistic way. When they want to use the churches as a tool for reaching their own goals. I cannot accept from any party, not even from a mayor to treat us as their natural partners and demand political support from the churches. We have to cooperate with everyone to create a common set of values but we are not “natural partners” of anyone. The churches suffered enough during the dictatorship when they were expected to support the state without criticism. Luckily, even at that time there were some people who resisted. We mustn’t forget that the churches also experienced a lot of humiliation and unjust exclusion during the governance of the present opposition parties. On the other hand, we cannot deny that the churches themselves try to flirt with the powers-to-be from time to time. If there were a healthy financing system of churches in Hungary – which is not the case now – they wouldn’t be forced to have constant financial negotiations with the government. I am thinking of a transparent and reliable financing system which would remain unaffected by political changes. Not what some people are saying, namely that the believers should keep up the churches. That is ridiculous. Just as if someone said that the Hungarian State Opera should be financed from the ticket income of the friends of the opera. Churches are not only carrying out tasks in education and the social sphere but also their spiritual work could have a healing effect on the society.
– How deeply are the parties immersed in political Christianity?
– All parties show some signs of the phenomenon, but Jobbik is the most outstanding example. The vocabulary and the ideas of Jobbik and the way they are using the most important Christian symbol, the cross, for political purposes is clearly blasphemous. But I am just as unhappy about the cross appearing in the party image of the Christian Democratic Party. I also do not rejoice when Prime Minister Viktor Orbán starts his speeches with “dear congregation” and ends them with “Soli Deo Gloria”. It is good if he thinks like that as a private person, but it shouldn’t be brought to a government level. The late Alliance of Free Democrats (SZDSZ) had an infamous slogan: “My kingdom come!” I criticized them just as I criticized a poster of the Hungarian Democratic Forum (MDF) at the time of the first free elections in 1990. This one said: “Thy kingdom come!” In my opinion, MDF was the more blasphemous of the two. The liberal party at least uncovered itself, showing how egocentric they are. But the other example, taking the biblical phrase in its original form, mixed up Hungary with the kingdom of God. But no more about political parties. I didn’t leave anyone out, did I?
– Yes, you did. The Hungarian Socialist Party (MSZP).
– Speaking of that crew, I could – maybe a bit unjustly – refer to the whole era of communism…
– Let’s not go into that. We should just speak about the MSZP today.
– Let me just mention the Democratic Coalition (DK), whose leader is only generating sympathy for political Christianity with his radical anti-clericalism. As I see it, he doesn’t understand a word of what I call public Christianity and which I hold as an undeniable right. Coming back to the socialists, their signing of the treaty with the Vatican didn’t lack political intentions either. I admit that they were also driven by righteous purposes but basically it was a deal. It was a way for the socialists to win over the Catholic Church.
– Your thoughts that were broadcast on the radio were published a few days ago as a book. At the presentation, before reading a piece called “The homeless Jesus” you referred to the newest regulations about the homeless as “painful and unjust”. I cannot recall though the churches having protested very actively against the criminalization of homelessness.
– We are not hypocrites: everyone knows that this is a complex issue. No one is happy—including me–when he steps out of his house only to see that someone has urinated again in front of the door. Yet, we try to help. My family and I take blankets or food to the homeless finding shelter at the bus stop near us. We are in the middle of preparing a Lutheran statement which basically says that prohibiting the homeless from dwelling in public places is not a solution. The institutional background needs to be developed. As long as there is no sufficient financing and infrastructure, it is meaningless for the mayor of Budapest or others in Parliament to say that there are attractive shelters in the city. Because there are not. It shouldn’t be possible to – or should I say, it is a sin to – criminalize the homeless, especially before we have provided them with sufficient provisions. But your question was why didn’t we protest more loudly. There were some interviews though, in which I and my colleagues working closely with the homeless expressed their opinion. I am proud of our pastor Márta Román Bolba who has spoken at several demonstrations. Together with the members of the group City for Everyone and with the homeless she participated in the civil disobedience action at the meeting of the Council of Budapest. She did everything she possibly could. It is important to underline that she is not just a “tolerated” person in the Evangelical–Lutheran Church. On the contrary: she is fully supported by the leaders of our church. I wish there were more people like her. At the time of Advent, we have to specially emphasize this service of the church. It is not only deeds of charity but a testimony about Jesus: in his birth, God humiliated and lowered himself to the very deep. I would very much like this insensitive society to hear this radical theological message.
– In your book, you also write about a “sick church.” How serious is this illness and what is its nature?
– It is an illness in itself that we are divided by schisms although God created the church to be one. There are many symptoms. The church often appears to be lame: it moves with difficulty and is slow in its reactions. With Pope Francis, maybe even the big Catholic church will change in this regard. Another symptom is self-importance: the church thinks it always has a solution for every question. Luther makes a clear differentiation between the theology of the glory and the theology of the cross. Smaller neo-Protestant groups often think that success is a blessing from God and that the extent of success shows our proximity to God. Therefore they cling to power as if the place of the church would be on the glorious side. However, Luther teaches that the church has to stand beside the suffering, those on the periphery, the underprivileged and the outcasts. The church is also ill because it has many unsettled issues. One of those is the secret agent issue.
– Unlike the Catholic and the Reformed Church, the Lutheran Church started to reveal its past with a great intensity. Then the process seems to have stopped.
– We haven’t stopped at all. Seemingly there was a break of two years, but during this time exhaustive background work was accomplished. The synod of our church decided that the past of the church leadership has to be explored first. In a few weeks, a sizable book will present full documentation about the lives of two Lutheran bishops, Zoltán Káldy and Ernő Ottlyk.
– Were both of them secret agents?
– Yes. But it is an interesting comparison as it will be visible what a difference there is between one agent and another. You can even compare how they reported about the same event. Zoltán Káldy used the code name Pécsi, Ernő Ottlyk was Szamosi. But it wouldn’t be proper to say more about the details before the book is published. I don’t want to excuse either of the two. But it is true that Zoltán Káldy – helped by signing an agent’s mandate – tried to implement his own ideas about church leadership. Ernő Ottlyk was seeking his own benefit in a distasteful manner, causing real injury to others. As for my personal involvement: I was ordained by Bishop Káldy. In 1983, before travelling to Canada on official business they tried to recruit me. I called my father in a perplexed state. Bishop Káldy was the only other person whom I told what happened. To my great astonishment and joy, he also found it natural that I shouldn’t cooperate. If they approach me once more, I should say I don’t want to work with them and this is also Bishop Káldy’s message, he said. And so I did. They stopped coming to me and there were no unpleasant consequences.
– I was quite shocked to hear a Lutheran professor give a lecture on Luther’s anti-Semitism at a recent conference. How can you accept the fact that the “initiator of Reformation” had anti-Semitic views?
– It is not a pleasant topic to face but it would be even worse to hide it. We have to speak straight.
– Doesn’t it affect one’s faith?
– No. I don’t believe in Luther but in God. On the other hand, I cannot follow his example in this question but in other respects I still do. The Lutheran politician Endre Bajcsy-Zsilinszky also expressed anti-Semitic views in a difficult phase of his life. The great difference is that he was a racist in his youth and later became an anti-fascist. Unfortunately Luther followed a reverse order. Someone said once that it would have been better for poor Luther if God had called him out of this world three years earlier. It was only in the last three years of his life that he expressed anti-Semitic thoughts, not earlier. Of course he had some really unacceptable sentences.
– Even if they weren’t his own invention. He mostly drew on the texts of an earlier author.
– Although the context of the sixteenth century was different from today, a sentence like “set fire to synagogues” should not be written down at any time. In his earlier works, Luther speaks positively of the Jews. His later anti-Semitism casts a shadow over his life work but does not cover it as a whole. His unacceptable statements can only be quoted by the Lutheran church as a negative example. 2013 was the year of tolerance in our church. We organized a series of exhibitions, conferences and cultural events. At a meeting for Lutheran school principals and teachers, we emphasized that in a Lutheran school there is no place for expressing anti-Roma, anti-gay, or anti-Semite views. In this church, there is simply no space for any extremism.
Ahh, these hopeless interviewers!
The proper place to start the interview with the good bishop is to get his views on the Prime Minister addressing the country as “Keresteny Magyarorsag”….and whether he is in agreement with that appelation.
“Keresteny Magyarorszag” = Christitan Hungary
A breath of fresh air.
The court jester, Zoltan Balogh could learn some decency from this Evangelikus pasztor.
Meanwhile on Planet Hungary …
The Hungarian Reformed Church is planning to surprise 40 poor children for Christmas. So far so good. Right?
Now get a load of this. They are planning to take them out in a luxury hotel. The Hilton Hotel in the castle district in Budapest. Zoltan Balog, State Secretary for Social Inclusion, also a Calvinist Pastor, is one of the prominent organizers. They promise to these lucky 40 kids an unforgettable evening with games fun and … champagne, caviar and hookers (ok I made these up). They promise them surprises, “Nyilas Misi” packages. Nyilas Misi is sort of like the Hungarian Oliver Twist from Zsigmond Moricz’s famous novel, the Be Faithful Unto Death. He got once a “pakk” a package from home, while he lived in a boarding school, and the bullies eat the content, the tasty “pate”, that turned out to be shoe shine cream. I wonder what is Pater Balog planning to put into this 40 “pakks” …
Ok. We knew Balog is a moron. He gave the highest decorations to Szaniszlo, that wingnut coockoo reporter and the racist, homophobe rock star guy, but tastelessness should have limits even on Planet Hungary. Oh, yes. Did I mention that several politicians are coming too?
All this in a country where homelessness is a criminal offense.
Disclamer: No. It’s not from the Onion, it’s Hungary.
Not long ago, Pope Francis released a 60 page exhortation: The Joy of the Gospel regarding “Relations with Judaism”
247. “We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16-18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word.
248. Dialogue and friendship with the children of Israel are part of the life of Jesus’ disciples. The friendship which has grown between us makes us bitterly and sincerely regret the terrible persecutions which they have endured, and continue to endure, especially those that have involved Christians.
249. God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with his word. For this reason, the Church also is enriched when she receives the values of Judaism. While it is true that certain Christian beliefs are unacceptable to Judaism, and that the Church cannot refrain from proclaiming Jesus as Lord and Messiah, there exists as well a rich complementarity which allows us to read the texts of the Hebrew Scriptures together and to help one another to mine the riches of God’s word. We can also share many ethical convictions and a common concern for justice and the development of peoples.”
@petofi – Hungary is predominantly a Christian nation and the Jewish people are the minority. In Israel, the Christians are the minority and PM Netanyahu fights for the rights and best interests of the Jewish people first, preserving the Jewish state, while accommodating the needs of the minority groups. For the life of me, I can not understand your frustrations.
“When in Rome, do as Romans do” Jews and Christians should live together in harmony, they should respect each others’ beliefs, and should “help one another to mine the riches of God’s words”. Amen.
“They are planning to take them out in a luxury hotel. The Hilton Hotel in the castle district in Budapest. Zoltan Balog, State Secretary for Social Inclusion, also a Calvinist Pastor, is one of the prominent organizers. They promise to these lucky 40 kids an unforgettable evening…”
– Now listen up all you ‘ lucky’ children! Open your eyes good an look around: this is the place what never again, ever in your lifetime will you see from inside, unless some extraordinarily talented and ambitious of you working extreamly hard and may become a waiter or other servant… This is the lifestyle, what only we, your lord and syre entitled, so learn this and live happily by this rule ever after.
“Nice” gesture, indeed…
(Oh, lordy, it’s 2013 and we must teach the A,B,C’s of decency…)
First off, the statement “Christian Hungary” is exclusionary–it marginalizes all non-christians.
But really, are there not more Christian countries in Europe–I can think of Spain, France, Ireland, Portugal, Italy…and you know what, not a one of them has the wit to put “Christian”
before their country’s name.
(Gee, I guess this Victor the Orban knows a thing or two, right?)
“…namely that the believers should keep up the churches. That is ridiculous.”
The ridiculous notion is that churches should receive state support.
@petofi – the Catholic Church teaches decency and respect and I’d appreciate if you would also show respect during the most important Christian event in our calendar. Thank you.
And there you have it: the imbecility, confusion, and delusional nature of the average Magyar.
I rest my case.
@Live long and prosper – In your opinion, who should receive state support? The Porn Industry may be?
So he studied in the eighties both in West-Germany and in the US and he was ordained first in Hungary in 1982. When all religious activities were carefully supervised and regulated (ordainments were practically licensed) by the ÁEH, the feared National Agency for Church-related Matters. I see.
@petofi – “And there you have it: the imbecility, confusion, and delusional nature of the average Magyar.
I rest my case.”
There is a saying:
“Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.” (Ezra Benson)
OT: Paks II will cost HUF 6,000 billion. Under current plans. No wonder Fidesz and Simicska and everybody are pushing for it. It is the deal of the millenium. And there is no question that the Russians will build it.
Indeed, but if the state will fund the Opera house then the state should fund the football stadiums and the state should fund the churches and the state should fund everyone’s pet project until the state has run out of money.. but wait, the state can’t run out of money until it’s citizens run out of money… are Hungarians out of money yet?
Anyways, as soon as I saw that Fabiny seems to have a sense of entitlement to state funds that the interviewer didn’t challenge I recognized that Fabiny was sent a list of questions in a word document and he answered them. The text is cleaned up a bit and made to fit in the available space and then off to press you go. So forget any critical line of questioning… it’s a propaganda piece, the easiest way to fill a page.
The idea of Christian Hungary is clearly part of the Basic Law. It is part of chapter one- the so called “national avowal.” I have a problem with this, but apparently the vast majority of Hungarians do not. Fabiny in his interview actually argued for even more State funding for churches or at least more stable funding. So this is a liberal Christian who studied in the US, it shows the level of support for the idea of a Christian Hungary.
Istvan, I don’t think that there is strong support for Christian Hungary. Of course, the church leaders want state support but I would like to see a poll asking people what they think about tax money going for church’s religious activities. I bet that they wouldn’t be thrilled.
A bit, but not too much OT:
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
Who said that ?
Napoleon Bonaparte …
Still: Happy Holidays to everybody – whatever they are!
@wolfi: And it should also keep the rich from murdering the poor!
A law that was stuffed down everyone’s throat without out any consultation and so has questionable legitimacy. Sure, why not.
Matolcsy interview on HirTV.
This maybe the time to sell your HUF assets. Every time this imbecile opens his mouth Hungarian taxpayers lose billions.
Who do you mean?
Ezra T. the grandfather ‘apostle’, or the grandson who was a Bircher supporter?
“In this church, there is simply no space for any extremism.” Good to know. But there are some right wing extremist Lutheran priests as well in Hungary. The one in Dunaújváros has been hosting events with Jobbik and the Hungarian Guard for years.
A Catholic faith teacher in a public school showed a horror movie to six year old children. In the movie, people were sizzling in their fat, as a vivid image of the hell. Children came home sobbing.
Parents are apparently not allowed to take out their children from the faith class.
@ wolfi & Gretchen – There you are, your noble discovery alone should be enough to win an argument to respect the churches….Happy holidays to Eva and all the readers of Hungarian Spectrum.
Comments are closed.