Dissonant government voices on the Hungarian Holocaust

The Orbán government’s efforts to falsify history are proceeding full steam ahead. The “madness”–as Imre Mécs, one of the heroes of 1956, called it–continues. It looks as if Viktor Orbán refuses to listen to reason and insists on erecting a monument that depicts suffering Hungary as Archangel Gabriel at the mercy of the German imperial eagle. The originally stated purpose of the statue was to commemorate the German occupation of Hungary on March 19, 1944. After the first outburst of indignation, the monument’s rationale was changed to a commemoration of the victims, both Jewish and non-Jewish, of German aggression. There is only one problem with the whole concept. Hungary was an ally of Germany, and it was a legitimate Hungarian government that handled the deportation of about 600,000 Hungarian citizens of Jewish heritage. Not without reason, critics of the whole idea of the monument suspect that the Orbán government wants to shake off any responsibility for the Holocaust and to shift the blame entirely to Germany.

The protest around the foundation being built for the future monument has been going on for two weeks. Today about twenty people were removed and taken to police headquarters. The two best known demonstrators who were taken away are Imre Mécs, a former member of parliament who was sentenced to death as a result of his participation in the 1956 revolution, and his wife Fruzsina Magyar, a well-known dramaturgist.

It seems unlikely that the “madness” will end any time soon. Not only will the memorial stand but Sándor Szakály, a historian with far-right political views, will remain the director of the newly created historical institute,”Veritas.” As far I as can see, this new institute will be the government’s vehicle for a revisionist interpretation of modern Hungarian history. And we can only expect more historical madness. Just wait until young historians affected by the extremist ideology of Jobbik begin writing their own revisionist interpretations of historical events.

Mazsihisz, the umbrella organization of Jewish groups, objected to Szakály’s appointment, but considering that Sándor Szakály just signed a document ensuring long-term cooperation between the Veritas Institute and the Holocaust Documentation and Memorial Center, we can be sure that Szakály’s appointment is secure. How could it happen, one might ask, that the Holocaust Documentation Center would ever sign such a document? The answer is simple. One of the first acts of the Orbán government was a personnel change at the head of the Holocaust Documentation and Memorial Center. The old appointees were fired and the new guard arrived. At that point it was clear that the Orbán government had plans for the Center. Since the Memorial Center is financially dependent on the government, Viktor Orbán thinks he has every right to run the place the way he likes. In his world there is no such thing as an independent foundation. So, while Mazsihisz stands against Szakály’s appointment, the Orbán-appointed head of the Holocaust Memorial Center, György Haraszti, signs an agreement of long-term cooperation with the head of Veritas. On the face of it, it might seem that Orbán managed to split the Jewish community, but my feeling is that most Hungarian Jews applaud Mazsihisz and have a rather low opinion of the new head of the Holocaust Memorial Center.

Last Sunday’s March for Life, a yearly gathering in remembrance of the Holocaust, was the largest ever, definitely more than 30,000 people. The crowd filled the streets between the Danube and the Eastern Station. Quite a distance. The government was represented by President János Áder, who then joined the International March for Life on a pilgrimage to Auschwitz. This year the Hungarians led the procession from Auschwitz to Birkenau because of the 70th anniversary of the Hungarian Holocaust.

The Hungarian group in Auschwitz-Birkenau

The Hungarian group in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Áder made a speech there that was welcomed by all those who are critical of the Hungarian government’s attitude toward the Holocaust. Áder emphasized that the Hungarian state didn’t resist “the diabolical plan of the German occupiers”; in fact, it became its enablers. He called Auschwitz “the largest Hungarian cemetery.” He went as far as to say that “in order to understand the tragedy of 1944 we will have to take a look at ourselves.”  He added that there is no “forgiveness when a state turns against its own citizens.”

János Áder in Auschwitz-Birkenau / MTI

János Áder in Auschwitz-Birkenau / MTI

These are very strong words. The strongest I have ever heard from a member of the Orbán government. I can’t quite decide how to interpret them. I have the feeling that this was Áder’s first visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau, and I understand that the place makes an incredible impression on visitors. Perhaps the president changed his speech in the last minute to place greater emphasis on Hungary’s guilt than he had originally planned. Perhaps he was simply saying what he thought the pilgrims expected to hear. Perhaps he really does believe that the Hungarian government was complicit. In any case, Áder’s admission of Hungarian guilt stands in stark contrast to what Viktor Orbán, László Kövér, and Zoltán Balog think of Hungary’s anti-Semitic past. Áder didn’t look for excuses, he didn’t try to bury uncomfortable truths. Was this an example of what we call the good cop, bad cop syndrome or was it genuine? I don’t know whether we will ever be able to answer this question properly given the tight-lipped Fidesz leaders.

As for whether the Germans were true occupiers or not, here is an amusing story. A few days ago neo-Nazi groups also decided to demonstrate on Szabadág tér. Great was the panic among the anti-monument demonstrators. They were afraid of physical attacks by these skin heads. To their surprise it turned out that, just like the Budapest liberals, the neo-Nazis came to demonstrate against the monument. Why? Because, as they explained, the Germans did not occupy Hungary. How could they? Hungarians and Germans were comrades-in-arms who fought together against Bolshevism. No comment.

102 comments

  1. @csakis

    Servilism is in the bones of most Hungarians. The Hungarian interpreter did not dare to translate Guy Verhofstadt’s sentences criticizing Orban at 39:50.

    This is prima facie evidence that there is dictatorship in Hungary.

  2. In the meantime, the gross debt of the Hungarian government reached a new high on April 25.

    The new number is 24,654.2 billion HUF, a 12.1% increase since December 31, 2013.

    In other words, Orban has increased the national debt by a smart 36.5% since May 31, 2010 (if we include 2555.9 billion forints of the nationalized private retirement funds he spent on reducing the national debt)

    They [=gov’t] officially say that the debt/GDP is at 83.3%, but if you look at the number in detail, for this “achievement”, they had to increase the GDP by 1.6571% since December 31.

    That is the equivalent of a 5.2595% GDP growth at current prices & zero inflation.

    Wow. Why don’t they advertise this great number? Because nobody would believe them.

    I would put the (gross debt) /GDP at 24654.2/(29114.43)= 84.7%

  3. “Were the occupiers Nazis or Germans? They were Germans […] So it is understandable why we did not have any qualms about the appearance of the Reich eagle.”

    from Orban’s letter dated 04-29-2014

  4. Look at the direction of the wings of the eagle in the

    current Bundeswappen

    and the Nazi Reichsadler

    The sculpture depicts the Nazi Reichsadler (Orban translates it correctly as “birodalmi sas”) and not the the generic German eagle.

    Orban contradicts himself.

  5. @Matild

    Or to simplify the message:

    “Orban to Jews: Get Lost”

    But he will be so charming when he will address the diplomats again. These fidesznik ‘boys’ can make the Europeans swallow any- and everything.

  6. Tappanch: “Servilism is in the bones of most Hungarians. The Hungarian interpreter did not dare to translate Guy Verhofstadt’s sentences criticizing Orban at 39:50.
    This is prima facie evidence that there is dictatorship in Hungary.”

    This is incredible and, unfortunately, typical. Foreigners ought to know about this because it tells a lot about the situation in Hungary.

    I am not at all sure that the woman is a Fidesz supporter. She just knows that in Orbán’s Hungary you don’t say anything negative about the great leader on television.

  7. NOL, Orban’s letter (Tappanch already translated some part. What I am doing is to bring attention on how mentally confused Orban is.)

    “Were the occupiers Nazis or Germans? They were Germans […] So it is understandable why we did not have any qualms about the appearance of the Reich eagle.”

    The Archangel on the other hand does not represent “some innocent State” but the victims.
    Orban obviously did not read the application of the artist where he calls Hungary innocent. THe artist was chosen for without public tender of course, so why need to read what he is doing…

    SO, why the Germans are all guilty by association, Hungary should not be guilty by the same. I am not sure how Orban went through law school (actually I have a very good idea), but maybe he should take some history lessons together with our Reverend, who thinks that the Horthy government was not elected….

  8. I have to clarify of my last statement I wrote in speed. I did not mean that the Horthy government was elected by a democratic way. I just could not go back and corrected. I meant that the Horthy government was a LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT! contrary what the Reverend was shouting. ” IT WAS NOT A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT!”

  9. Bowen: April 30, 2014 at 9:29 am Quote
    For a view of how many armed personnel are now “protecting” the monument in Szabadsag Ter …
    http://nol.hu/belfold/egyesevel-viszik-el-a-tuntetoket-a-megszallasi-emlekmutol-1459283
    ——

    I do not think that there were as many police officers protecting the Hungarian Television from the football hooligans in 2006 as many police officers are protecting this fence from a few dozen of older citizens.

    ——-

    As many of you know Orban Viktor’s birthday is May 31st.
    Guess what is the inauguration day of this monument lying about history? May 31st.
    Coincidence? I do not hink so. If the Hungarian Army needs to be brought in Orban will do it, just to get ready in time.

  10. “In other words, Orban has increased the national debt by a smart 36.5% since May 31, 2010 (if we include 2555.9 billion forints of the nationalized private retirement funds he spent on reducing the national debt)”

    And while the Felcsutian is at it, let us not forget that the central bank is now, surreptitiously, whittling down the national reserves with newly discovered ‘rights’ (“What is not forbidden by law…we are allowed to do.”–Only a Hungarian civil servant–who actually knows zero about
    civil service, would ever open his mouth with that.) So far, they’re only designating spending
    of about 500 million euros, but that’s only a start.

    Orban, getting even for a 1000 years of humiliation….

  11. THe Hungarian Academy of Science will be holding an open discussion about the controversial monument. Although Orban already made up his mind about how accurate, and historically perfect the monument is, the more educated feel that there is a place for discussion.

    As you cannot find to much information about he meeting on the HAS (MTA) site or on news portals, it is important to publish the date, time and the discussion.

    The discussion/debate will be held on May 13 between 10:00 a.m. and 16:00 p.m. at the MTA’s “felolvasoterem”, under the title Historical Memory and [Factual] History.
    THere will be titles like Lying memory in art history by Erno Marosi. Krisztian Ungvary will also address the audience.
    The event is free and open to the public.

  12. There’s a storm at the moment, torrential rain. I just ran past the monument in Szabadsag Ter. Despite the rain, it’s entirely surrounded by police (I presume) in black cloaks. You can see behind the screening that some pillars have already been erected.

    Underneath the Unicredit bank building were some protestors sheltering from the rain. They were also ‘watched over’ by more police.

    This is something that has to be got across to the “outside world”.

  13. It is an interesting contrast in Szabadsag Ter at the moment (6 o’clock this evening).

    The site where Orban, The Jew-Baiter’s homage to Hungarian fascism is going to be built is protected from a couple of dozen pensioners by at least thirty of his stormtroopers. The memorial to the Soviets, in contrast, now has had its fence removed and, as far as I could see, there were no police in attendance. This monument has been continually attacked in the past by the Jobbik/Fidesz Right.

  14. Szoljanka: “These fidesznik ‘boys’ can make the Europeans swallow any- and everything.”

    But first of all the Hungarians.

  15. barnaT: “It is also called segmentation in marketing, you have different people telling different things to different groups. Since these groups rarely interact, all segments can remain happy.”

    I can assure you I was irritated by these double standards the first time that I came across it during my studies 20 years ago, and it had nothing to do with Fidesz. Although people who confronted me with that most likely would be Fidesz voters now. So happiness was not really the outcome, more the feeling of “quite weird” and “why do they do that?”. I never understood. Why do they bother to play such games with the other nations, West or East, and is there something that they really care for? (Except for the *show*.)

  16. I’ve got an inkling of Orban’s route to kingdom: the Russians will impose on the Serbs to return part of northern Serbia to Hungary. Orban, as the Redeemer of Hungarian pride, will
    be ‘asked’ to assume the role of Regent.

  17. Oneill’s “Jew-Baiter” remark shows a bias that allows him to take the discussion so low that Goebbels would be proud of him. The FACT is that Orban and his ministers have attended and participated in numerous events and meetings, offering apologies for those Hungarians who betrayed their country by their roles in the Holocaust as it was manifested in the nation. No matter what he or others say, it will never be enough for the Communist/Socialists who are out of power and will do anything to get back in to control. Frankly, the more I read on this blog, the more I realize it is futile to attempt to discuss anything here and expect a reasoned response. The Communist/Socialist (same bunch under different names) outsiders were given the heave-ho! by the Hungarians, and twice, but haven’t gotten the lesson – they had their chance and they failed. In fact, per the Jews and the Holocaust they ignored it! Now they see it as a chance to get the media to pay attention to their trumped up charges. The media likes noise even if it’s baseless, because it fills columns and makes good sound bytes. … In offering respect and sympathy to the Jewish posterity, by a generation largely removed from the instance, in Hungary, WHO has done more to encourage remembrance than Viktor Orban and Fidesz? … Next question – The fact is, with Nazi sympathizers and Hitler on one side, and self-serving prima donnas or wafflers on the other, only Horthy’s shrewd tactics kept a million Jews alive until 1944, and 250,000+ who survived the war: IN ALL OF EUROPE, NATION OR LEADER, WHO DID BETTER?

  18. Rev. A W Kovacs:

    Horthy was a wonderful person. After all he only killed three quarter of the Jews when he could have killed all of them. I think we need to send a letter to Pope Francis, he had the wrong persons declared saints the other day.

  19. @Rev. A W Kovacs

    So, telling the jewish leaders that he will consult on the monument and then, with nary a word,
    he goes ahead without the promised consultation. Is that jew-baiting or what, Reverend?

    But why would you admit it? It’s the Christian Church in Hungary that shares a good deal of the responsibility for the anti-semitism that is rife in the country. (By the way, good Reverend, why is Hungary the only country in Europe designated as “Christian Hungary”? Isn’t that a form of jew-baiting?)

    And, as I’ve said before, Orban’s popularity owes a good deal to the way he maligns jews regularly.

    Hungarians: not bread and water, but give them something to hate. Hungaricum indeed.

  20. @ Rev. A W Kovacs

    Who did better? Denmark, Bulgaria, Italy.
    Horthy was the first in modern Europe to introduce antisemitic legislation (“numerus clausus”) in 1920.

    You really don’t seem to know a lot. But you ostensibly belong to the category of people I fear most: believers.

  21. With gratitude for the Danes response, the percentage saved is wonderful.
    But, with all due respect, the 250 thousands plus saved in Hungary is also wonderful.
    Each and every one was a victory!

  22. Good Reverend I suspect that your analysis of Horthy’s “shrewd tactics” that kept Jews alive can be argued. Having read most the US Holocaust Memorial Museum’s amazing book The Holocaust in Hungary I have to save most scholars wouldn’t share your perspective that the Regent was all that shrewd or really deceived the Nazis.

    If the Soviet advance had been slower and the SS leadership did not believe they could save their own rotten Fascist skins by trading Budapest Jews for their lives no Jews would have survived in Hungary at all. But there are some who agree with you Reverend, there was a Hungarian former SS member in my church here in Chicago that I honestly believe would have shared your perspective, but he was a madman who died in Hungary only a few years ago still ranting no doubt about Chicago’s black population. From what I have heard he thought Horthy was a “Jew lover,” Horthy’s anti-Jewish statements I think prove that to have been another aspect of the madness of that old Hungarian Nazis.

  23. “oneill: April 30, 2014 at 2:27 pm Quote
    It is an interesting contrast in Szabadsag Ter at the moment (6 o’clock this evening).
    The site where Orban, The Jew-Baiter’s homage to Hungarian fascism is going to be built is protected from a couple of dozen pensioners by at least thirty of his stormtroopers. The memorial to the Soviets, in contrast, now has had its fence removed and, as far as I could see, there were no police in attendance. This monument has been continually attacked in the past by the Jobbik/Fidesz Right.”

    It is far from me to try to protect Orban’s tactics but it is my understanding regarding the Soviet monument that the police got wind of the Jobbik protest, where they wanted to take down the protective fence around the monument. By the morning Jobbik arrived, there was nothing to take down, so they could not make a “riot”.

  24. @Some1

    Re: Soviet Liberation Monument

    It is also possible that Jobbik made a deal wit the Russians that they would not touch the Soviet monument in the future, so the protection fence was not needed any longer.

  25. From the Global Jewish News Source, 1934

    “The Hungary of today is the first country in Europe with the courage to abandon official anti-Semitism after realizing that it is a menace to the nation. The call issued yesterday by the government party, inviting Jewish complaints, is only another proof that the present regime in Hungary does not regret the change in its policy with regard to the Jews. Could not Hungary’s experience serve as an example to other European nations?

    http://www.jta.org/1934/12/28/archive/hungarys-example

  26. tappanch April 30, 2014 at 5:37 pm Quote
    @Some1
    Re: Soviet Liberation Monument
    It is also possible that Jobbik made a deal wit the Russians that they would not touch the Soviet monument in the future, so the protection fence was not needed any longer.
    ———

    Good point. I did not even think of that. Although the second part of the article (I try to find it) said that the protesters at the Nazi monument were worried that the other group will try to stop them taking down the fence, but for their surprise, the Jobbik group does not agree with the monument either as they do not see the Germans as invaders…..

  27. WILL THE REAL REVISIONIST PLEASE RISE?

    Rev A W Kovacs:
    “…I was raised in the Hungarian-American community in Woodbridge/Perth Amboy NJ. But I spent years in the PA Anthracite region: Minersville – Saint Clair – Frackville 10 yrs and Wilkes-Barre ’65 – ’68, 3 more. I’m at 84 a pastor of a small Ref. Ch. in Johnstown PA …One of Hungary’s biggest problems is that after 40 years of Red Commie education, when the young studied their revisionist indoctrination, few have the story straight – and thus screwed up values, etc. … It’s like taking democracy to the barbarians in Afghan/Pak-istan to some extent. The real truth must be learned anew… Horthy saved Hungary, and it was the Jews last bastion because he refused to cave in to the Fuhrer and his Gestapo, until traitors forced him out and joined with the butchers. He served his country with his back to the wall, and many Jews survived in Budapest because of him! By the Regent’s stalling, by anti-Jewish laws without real bite and endorcement…”

  28. @Eva

    I was quoting from an article written by the Jews in 1934 about anti-semitism in Hungary.

    I repeat once again, this is an archived article written in December 28, 1934, on JTA.org (the worldwide Jewish News source).

    “A pleasant dissonance in the present wave of anti-Jewish discrimination in various parts of Central and Eastern Europe is the call issued yesterday by the Hungarian government party, inviting the Jews of Hungary to submit to the government any complaints which they may have.

    The Hungary of today is the first country in Europe with the courage to abandon official anti-Semitism after realizing that it is a menace to the nation. The call issued yesterday by the government party, inviting Jewish complaints, is only another proof that the present regime in Hungary does not regret the change in its policy with regard to the Jews. Could not Hungary’s experience serve as an example to other European nations?”

    http://www.jta.org/1934/12/28/archive/hungarys-example

  29. Hungary not anti-semitic, this is nonsense regardless where “the Jews” got it from. Absolutely nonsense. Unless they mean that Gömbös announced that he gave up his anti-Semitic rhetoric.

  30. I think what “Hungary not anti-semitic” is talking about is the absurdity of the current situation in Hungary. While the Fidesz government tries to call itself democratic and a government that is against racism and such, the reality is different.
    Certainly the article quoted from 1934 did not foreshadowed what was just about to happen to the Jews of Hungary, even though the measures were all in place, the Jewish laws were started to implemented. Just like then, today there are Jewish organization and prominent Jews who deny the existence of any political wrongdoing by the current government.

  31. The really interesting thing is: A controversial topic such as this post evokes lots of commentaries – and extremely revealing ones.

    The father of my oldest friend was for many years on a jury that granted scholarships to deserving students (“Studienstiftung des deutschen Volkes”). He said you could grill applicants on their academic achievements, on what their goals in life were, what they intended to contribute to society, etc. and you still wouldn’t know much about their character. But if you really wanted to know what person sat in front of you, you only had to ask him or her what he or she thought of capital punishment, and suddenly the really person would emerge.

  32. Rev. A W Kovacs – You don’t have to believe me, or second guesser Socialists, but you should pay attention to a first and account by John F. Montgomery, who was there in the political mix at Budapest from 1933 – 1941, as US Pres. FDR’s minister to Hungary. Below is his account of those years, from his book, “Hungary: The Unwilling Satellite,” 1947, Chapter 4, “A Refuge For One Million Jews.” I quote (with skips for brevity). … … “Up to March 1944, Hungary was the only European country east of the Pyrenees where the lives of Jews could be considered as secure. Besides the Hungarian Jews, then numbering almost one million, sixty to seventy thousand Jewish refugees from foreign countries had fled to Hungary and lived there in safety until Hitler’s armies occupied the country and ordered their systematic extermination. Hitler’s wrath against Hungary had been largely provoked by the protection granted to the Jews, a large percentage of whom survived the Nazi period in Hungary; for by the time the German armies actually took over, Hitler was near the end of his tether. … The safety of the Jews in Hungary was largely due to the type of restrictive laws passed. Through them Hungary seemed to be falling in line with the demands of the tyrant; but was able to maintain an oasis of refuge. Had she refused to pass ANY [sic italics] such laws, no doubt the real security for the Jews would have ended more abruptly than it did. … … The first Hungarian Jewish restriction law was in reality a challenge to Hitler. … The law provided that anyone who had been baptized before a certain date was not to be considered a Jew. This stipulation was in direct opposition to Hitler’s Nuremberg laws which made Jews of Christians, if they had certain Jewish ancestors. … … Hungary’s solution of the problem is only a small part of the story in central European countries. To understand what happened we have to remember that anti-Jewish measures were one of the cardinal ingredients of the German foreign policy under Hitler. Compliance in tis matter was the touchstone of friendliness toward Germany …. The reaction of governments who had reason to fear him can easily be imagined. … So these small countries, finding that Germany was set on anti-Jewish measures, felt that it was better to yield on that point than to endanger the whole nation. This explains … Mussolini’s transition to anti-Jewish laws … the anti-Jewish measures of the Vichy regime … two examples of a long series. … … The real exception was Hungary. … It can be easily seen that this situation offered excellent opportunities to anti-Semitic demagogues. Financed by Germany they appeared here and there. … … Under the circumstances, it was heroic on the part of the regime to permit a strong influx of foreign Jews, chiefly Polish, Slovakian and Austrian. It would have been sufficient proof of courage if the government, defying German pressure, had protected its own Jews, at the same time keeping its borders closed. Hungary did more than she was morally obliged to do, by offering shelter to foreign Jews in addition to her own. … But even when she yielded, Hungary did so more slowly and with more dignity than her neighbors. … … These facts must be kept on record. I am pleased to say that the American Jewish Year Book … reported truthfully that Hungarian concessions to Germany’s anti-Jewish demands were meant to take the wind out of the Nazi sails … but Hungary was always playing for time. … When Hitler offered a larger slice of Transylvania as a bribe, Count Paul Teleki refused to secure it by anti-Jewish concessions. ‘It was really surprising,” wrote the American Jewish Year Book , ‘to note his resistance at this point, certainly a minor issue for Hungary after all the fundamental sacrifices extorted from her.’ … Before Hitler took matters into his own hands, the situation of the Jews as described by the Year Book was that ‘considerable numbers of those who lost their original occupations found some devious ways to earn at least some irregular income. The Jewish community was permitted to organize large-scale self-help. It was able to do so because, with the exception of land, no Jewish property right was violated until the fateful Spring of 1944. Jews dwelt safely in their original homes; there were no restrictions on their liberty of movement, travel or recreation, and no discrimination against them in the distribution of food. They were protected also from the malignity of the local Nazi groups.’ … When the German Gestapo took upon itself to start the deportation of Jews, ‘tens of thousands of Christian Hungarians.’ according to the Year Book, ‘ are known to have rushed to the aid of the Jews in distress, trying to shield and hide them … in their futile attempts to escape. Both Catholic and Protestant clergymen issued thousands of spurious birth certificates, in the vain hope off saving their bearers from persecution. Young Christian girls have frequently been seen parading the streets of cities and towns arm in arm with young Jews wearing the Star of David.’ – – – THERE IT IS, quoted in the words of a credible American diplomat and a reputable Jewish publication of the day! Buy or borrow the book (this is just one portion). – — – The truth will set us free – to rebuild a Hungary that is proud of its heroes of 1921 to 1944, of 1956, of 1989 – and ready to unite all its people. Isten áldd meg a magyart!

  33. @Kovacs:

    Then why did Horthy send tens of thousands of innocent Jews to labour camps already in 1940?

    There’s an account by the famous mathematician Turan Pál who only survived because a guard recognised his name and wondered whether he was related to the man who had published “Turan’s theorem” – and then was shocked to find that this mathematician was cutting trees in the camp, so he gave him some lighter office work …
    http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/Biographies/Turan.html

    So it seems to me that you and your source are just not telling the truth – maybe you better stick to telling fairy tales from the bible!

  34. American Jewish Year Book online

    http://www.ajcarchives.org/main.php?GroupingId=40

    1938-1939 (events of year 5698= 1937.09.06 to 1938.09.25)
    1939-1940 (events of year 5699= 1938.09.26 to 1939.09.13)
    1940-1941 (events of year 5700= 1939.09.14 to 1940.10.02)
    1941-1942 (events of year 5701= 1940.10.03 to 1941.09.21)
    1942-1943 (events of year 5702= 1941.09.22 to 1942.09.11)
    1943-1944 (events of year 5703= 1942.09.12 to 1943.09.29)
    1944-1945 (events of year 5704= 1943.09.30 to 1944.09.17)
    1945-1946 (events of year 5705= 1944.09.18 to 1945.09.07)

  35. It is needless to say (but I am telling you in any case) that the Yearbook reflects the knowledge of its authors in the US at the time of the publication.

  36. When I have time, I will take a look at the AJY entry, but I’m almost certain that it has something to do with Gyula Gömbös’s announcement after he was named prime minister. He shelved his “race defense” (fajvédő) ideas for the time being.

  37. WOLFI – I read the link about Paul Turan, as you suggested. It did not support your position that Horthy sent “tens of thousands of innocent Jews to labour camps already in 1940.” … It cannot be doubted that labour camps existed, but that Jews were singled out to be sent there is questionable, and especially Paul Turan. … It says, “In 1940 Turan was sent to a labour camp, and HE WAS IN AND OUT of various labor camps throughout the war.” Further on it asserts, “Turan was LIBERATED from the labour camp IN 1944 and was able TO RESUME teaching at the HUNGARIAN RABBINICAAL SCHOOL in Budapest.” – – – It is possible that he was not sent to the labour camp because he was a Jew. The fact that in 1944 he was freed, when Jews became captives in wholesale lots, open the door to questioning whether he was imprisoned because he was a Jew. – It is possible that the Hungarian government had another reason, and it may be that like many academics today he may have embraced and became a Communist activist. After its experience with the Bela Kun disaster, Hungary’s government had a zero tolerance for Communism/Socialism, in fact anything that would disturb the nation’s order. [The Rev. Dr. Stephen Szabo said his research proved that the venerated Hand of St. Stephen, on display in the Budapest church, wasn’t what it was claimed to be, but that of a child. Because it would disturb the tranquility and unity of the nation he was given the choice of prison or emigrating to another country. He came to America and became the pastor and bishop of Hungarian Reformed churches.] … That Turan was released despite his Jewish roots raises the question above. Why was he freed at a time when Jews were rounded up? Were his labour camps for Jews, or prewar prisons for those the government saw as agitators? – – – Thus the timing you spoke of above is questionable.

  38. Kovacs, I already knew that you’re an idiot – and now you’ve proved it openly by your insinuations re Turan!
    Re those labour camps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_service_%28Hungary%29

    FYI: At the end of 1944 the Russian army already was near Budapest, Eastern Hungary was under Russian control. Don’t you know your own history?

    Here’s some info from himself about his work in labour camp – at the end of 1944 he was liberated by the downfall of Fascist Hungary, not as you interpret it.

    Click to access Turan.pdf

    “But the greatest help I got from graph theory came in October and November 1944. As to our situation then, in short we did not have work to do but expected every day to be entrained, deported to the West. ”

    On your other insane ramblings – no comment …

  39. @Petofi – “But why would you admit it? It’s the Christian Church in Hungary that shares a good deal of the responsibility for the anti-semitism that is rife in the country. (By the way, good Reverend, why is Hungary the only country in Europe designated as “Christian Hungary”? Isn’t that a form of jew-baiting?)

    And, as I’ve said before, Orban’s popularity owes a good deal to the way he maligns jews regularly.

    Hungarians: not bread and water, but give them something to hate. Hungaricum indeed.”
    ********

    How about that? What a chutzpah! Just for the record, Hungary is not the ONLY European country designated as “Christian” (there is Poland, Italy etc. etc.).
    Israel is designated as a “Jewish State” and frankly, I don’t have a problem with that, after all, Jesus Christ was a Jew, why should it worry me?
    Dear Petofi. love more, hate less!

    (My recently released book: The Gresham Symphony, Part One – available on Amazon.com/kindle – is on FREE promotion today)

  40. latefor: “How about that? What a chutzpah! Just for the record, Hungary is not the ONLY European country designated as “Christian” (there is Poland, Italy etc. etc.).
    Israel is designated as a “Jewish State” and frankly, I don’t have a problem with that, after all, Jesus Christ was a Jew, why should it worry me?

    I think that your juxtaposing Christian Poland or Christian Hungary with Israel as a Jewish state is fallacious. Of course, Israel is a Jewish state just as Hungary is a Hungarian state.

  41. Győr Calling!

    Is this Rev. A W Kovacs for real?

    He seems convinced of his own propaganda.

    All this ‘the truth will set you free’ bollocks is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

    Sort of last resort defence.

    Just respond to the rational arguments that have been put so far, Reverend.

    Stop just quoting narrative that tenuously supports your own fragile belief systems and just answer what is outstanding so far.

    For example, gdfxx, Istvan and Wolfi.

    You really don’t seem to know a lot. But you ostensibly belong to the category of people I fear most: believers.

    So says Minusio.

    Amen to that.

    And to think you hold in your hands the stewardship of the people who believe in your strand of religion.

    Mad, truly mad.

    And stop all this “each and every one was a victory” bollocks too.

    The truth will set you free?

    Your own propaganda has put you in a prison – you wouldn’t know the truth if it existed in the bible.

    Regards

    Charlie

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